All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
-------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:06:18 +0100
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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:53 AM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-b... Has all source code for the computer been disclosed?
as far as i was able to ascertain when i last checked: yes. u-boot and linux kernel, no proprietary pieces at all.
Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet.
i already have the datasheet. it's the reference design that i need.
What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have?
i need a reference design. full schematics, full pcb layout.
What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz?
the rk3288 already outperforms a dual-core intel atom.
l.
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On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
probably a good deal of it is, but the question becomes... how much of it is...
-------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Linux on small ARM machines arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 14:06:18 +0100
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:53 AM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1771382379/firefly-rk3399-six-core-64-b... Has all source code for the computer been disclosed?
as far as i was able to ascertain when i last checked: yes. u-boot and linux kernel, no proprietary pieces at all.
Lkcl has says, he can make use of the rk3399 if he has the processor's data sheet.
i already have the datasheet. it's the reference design that i need.
What data about the rk3399 does lkcl not have?
i need a reference design. full schematics, full pcb layout.
What is the performance of the rk3399 processor compared to a x86 dual core 2ghz?
the rk3288 already outperforms a dual-core intel atom.
l.
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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do
everything. the open source kernel "driver" cannot actually be called a "driver" at all. it is nothing more than a gateway to the actual hardware. peripherals on ARM are memory-mapped: the "driver" simply provides access to the shared memory region (plus maybe handles some interrupts).
this is a constant source of confusion with people believing that just because the "shim" has been released, somehow magically it's all okay.
l.
So do these drivers provide registers etc ? How much extra effort is required to get 2d accel with a clean room userland driver ? If we can do that and also get rasterisers working we can have a fully functional gnu/linux desktop futureproofed with wayland support. Also could we reuse that multimedia decoding engine from the a20 ? On May 8, 2017 12:13 PM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will
get
mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland
blob do
everything. the open source kernel "driver" cannot actually be called a "driver" at all. it is nothing more than a gateway to the actual hardware. peripherals on ARM are memory-mapped: the "driver" simply provides access to the shared memory region (plus maybe handles some interrupts).
this is a constant source of confusion with people believing that just because the "shim" has been released, somehow magically it's all okay.
l.
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Yes, here they are
https://developer.arm.com/products/software/mali-drivers/midgard-kernel On May 8, 2017 12:02 PM, "Bill Kontos" vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel. On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
2017-05-08 11:02 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com:
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel.
A display pipeline is a complex one which requires multiple drivers. Especially on ARM devices where the display pipeline is a "mix and match" one.
So ARM has released a "driver". What type of driver? What functions does it have?
Is it one for their display encoder, a crtc driver? A framebuffer driver? A clasic DRM driver, A KMS driver? A 2D Accelerator for X? A 3D accelator. A shim to acces the hardware using a BLOB build for one specific version of X relying and kernel on a specific ARM Core design? Probably the last.
And ARM specific driver without sources is worthless. It's use once and only for short time.
SoC with ARM desing are mix and match. Different ARM core designs. Different and mixed GPU's MALI, Vivante, PowerVR, etc. Output (CRTC etc) from all type of different vendors ARM, Designware, etc. Most of the time the manufacture is not disclosed.
If you look at Allwinner. The community now has two display engine drivers. The drivers only setup output and change video modes. GPU type is MALI.
Bealebone has TI SoC for which a KMS/DRM driver was written by Rob clark, tilcdc, which has support for a NXP HDMI controller/encoder. It also has a 2d accelerator from vivante and a 3d accelatror from Imation(powerVR).
With the recent release of the etnaviv driver the BB community wrote a patch to have 2d acceleration.
Etnaviv and Freedreno had a hard time being included into the Linux projects because of their mix and match nature. A single driver was impossible.
I've once had bought an Atom mini laptop (Dell Mini 1010). Which I explicitly bought because of the most powerful Intel ATOM GPU at the time. Intel has a reasonable Opensource GPU track record. Poulsbo turned out to be an Imation PowerVR licenced design. Boy was I misled: no opensource drivers only blob's compatible with aging and broken kernels and X-servers. So no upgrades for me or anyone else.
So a perfectly capable laptop to the trash.
Intel did release a Opensource driver. A KMS driver. So that means modesetting and nothing more. No 2d acceleration no 3d acceleration nog hardware video decoding. Intel could not build anything better because Imation did not let them. The Intel engineer said that there was enough code and documentation available to create decoder though. But he didn't write it.
This is way closed source drivers a bad idea. They limit the use and lifetime of your devices.
I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement their design has.
And ARM and Imation are scared the most.
Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create their own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a patent war agains Apple. SCO Unix anyone?
On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:54 PM, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement their design has.
eexactly. the "big boys" - nvidia, intel, amd - are the ones less adversely affected, because their patent portfolio is larger and more well-established i.e. has precedence.
the "upstarts" are the embedded GPU designers, who, yeah, exactly as you say, will have almost certainly been infringing various patents.
Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create their own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a patent war agains Apple.
... except somebody forgot to tell their CEO that the patents they were expecting to bludgeon apple with... have expired. someone at apple was paying attention, whilst imgtec wasn't.
i want to laugh quite a lot... but it would be unkind to do so, and, additionally, this is far from over.
SCO Unix anyone?
looking forward to it. it's about time. we _have_ told them again and again
l.
Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. Also on the plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing their drivers a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened.
On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:54 PM, mike.valk@gmail.com mike.valk@gmail.com wrote:
2017-05-08 11:02 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com:
I think arm has open source kernel drivers but there is no way they will get mainlined any time soon. The question is, how much does the userland blob do and how much work needs to be done to get libre 2d accel.
A display pipeline is a complex one which requires multiple drivers. Especially on ARM devices where the display pipeline is a "mix and match" one.
So ARM has released a "driver". What type of driver? What functions does it have?
Is it one for their display encoder, a crtc driver? A framebuffer driver? A clasic DRM driver, A KMS driver? A 2D Accelerator for X? A 3D accelator. A shim to acces the hardware using a BLOB build for one specific version of X relying and kernel on a specific ARM Core design? Probably the last.
And ARM specific driver without sources is worthless. It's use once and only for short time.
SoC with ARM desing are mix and match. Different ARM core designs. Different and mixed GPU's MALI, Vivante, PowerVR, etc. Output (CRTC etc) from all type of different vendors ARM, Designware, etc. Most of the time the manufacture is not disclosed.
If you look at Allwinner. The community now has two display engine drivers. The drivers only setup output and change video modes. GPU type is MALI.
Bealebone has TI SoC for which a KMS/DRM driver was written by Rob clark, tilcdc, which has support for a NXP HDMI controller/encoder. It also has a 2d accelerator from vivante and a 3d accelatror from Imation(powerVR).
With the recent release of the etnaviv driver the BB community wrote a patch to have 2d acceleration.
Etnaviv and Freedreno had a hard time being included into the Linux projects because of their mix and match nature. A single driver was impossible.
I've once had bought an Atom mini laptop (Dell Mini 1010). Which I explicitly bought because of the most powerful Intel ATOM GPU at the time. Intel has a reasonable Opensource GPU track record. Poulsbo turned out to be an Imation PowerVR licenced design. Boy was I misled: no opensource drivers only blob's compatible with aging and broken kernels and X-servers. So no upgrades for me or anyone else.
So a perfectly capable laptop to the trash.
Intel did release a Opensource driver. A KMS driver. So that means modesetting and nothing more. No 2d acceleration no 3d acceleration nog hardware video decoding. Intel could not build anything better because Imation did not let them. The Intel engineer said that there was enough code and documentation available to create decoder though. But he didn't write it.
This is way closed source drivers a bad idea. They limit the use and lifetime of your devices.
I guess the company's building those GPU are too scared that if they open their drives their competitors see the copyright and/or patent infringement their design has.
And ARM and Imation are scared the most.
Thankfully Imation is going to die soon. Apple has announced to create their own GPU. and rob Imation from 60% of their income. Imation anounced a patent war agains Apple. SCO Unix anyone?
On May 8, 2017 7:47 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Mon, 8 May 2017 17:39:17 +0300 Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com wrote:
Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced. Also on the plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing their drivers a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened.
They're openly considering selling MIPS, as well as other parts of them. That goes against knowing things would go this way.
- Lauri
2017-05-08 16:39 GMT+02:00 Bill Kontos vkontogpls@gmail.com:
Please don't top post. Gmail has inline capability.
Imagination is far from dead yet. They did a mistake when they based all of their gpu income on apple, but their ip is rather advanced.
ImgTec income is going to be cut by 60%. That's not something most companies can survive.
Their plan is to sue Apple for using of their IP and forcing them te keep paying royalties.
To fund that they are selling of vital parts, like the recently aquired MIPS. , to fund the legal fees and supplement their loss of income.
Apple will stall, they have the money to do so, and probably force them to trial. In trail ImgTec is forced to disclose publicly what they think belongs to them. Which they will be reluctant to do because then the other GPU manufactures might be able file suits for infringement to ImgTec.
Hence my reference to the SCO suit against Linux users. Which ultimately failed and killed the company.
The same issue for them is they open up their driver sources.
All GPU manufactures are bound to infringement because sometimes things are invented twice or more at different places. Which makes sense when you're trying to reach the same goal with the same means and knowledge.
If only they'd sit around and say let's all open up our drivers and not sue each other for current design and start over from there.
I'll be surprised if they'll survive this. Apple has probably tried to buy and failed so they move to kill. This is join us or die tactics. And Apple has more money thus is able to strike harder and longer.
Also on the plus side there has been discussion about them open sourcing
their drivers a few months back and afterwards they hired new developers. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually saw this coming and reacted before it happened.
ImgTec has been holding that bone for our noses for years. Ten to be exact Poulsbo dates from 2007. I don't believe it until it's proven.
So if I'd place a bet to 1. ImgTec releasing sources 2. ImgTec dying from Apple lawsuit
I'd place on the second one. Their selling long term part for short term money for a lost cause.
The only winning parties here are going to be the lawyers just like with SCO.
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