Luke, et.al.
I saw this blog post a couple of nights ago:
http://blog.system76.com/post/159767214983/entering-phase-three
and I was thinking to myself that it might not be a half bad idea to try and contact these guys and see if they might be interested in making an EOMA-68 laptop and maybe even get into the business of designing EOMA-68 CPU cards.
While I think that they have more traditional computer/laptops in mind for the future, I could also see the possibility of them offering one EOMA-68 laptop for sale along a number of other traditional style laptops (why shouldn't they hedge their bets?).
Allow me to pull the most relevant quote from their post to support my theory: """ * Easy to work on and expand
At every step along the way we ask, “How does this decision affect serviceability”. Open it, change it, expand it. Our product will be flexible.
"""
To me the EOMA-68 paradigm sounds like an incredibly good fit. Since it sounds like they are probably still a couple of years away from trying to launch a line of custom laptops. Right now might be the best time to try and bring this project to their attention... heck, if they are curious enough it might even be worth it to send them an A20 CPU card and one of the mini desktops (after they are completed of course).
-Mike
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Mike Leimon leimon@gmail.com wrote:
Luke, et.al.
I saw this blog post a couple of nights ago:
http://blog.system76.com/post/159767214983/entering-phase-three
and I was thinking to myself that it might not be a half bad idea to try and contact these guys and see if they might be interested in making an EOMA-68 laptop and maybe even get into the business of designing EOMA-68 CPU cards.
nice idea, mike - i'll get in touch with them.
l.
Mike Leimon:
Luke, et.al.
I saw this blog post a couple of nights ago:
http://blog.system76.com/post/159767214983/entering-phase-three
Couple of points that got my attention. They say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Open source instead of Free/Libre Software. They also mentioned Ubuntu. This was enough to me to stop having any respect for them. At least based on that post.
Couple of points that got my attention. They say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Open source instead of Free/Libre Software. They also mentioned Ubuntu. This was enough to me to stop having any respect for them. At least based on that post.
I think that if we want Free Software and related hardware to strive, we should be more respectful of people and companies who don't necessarily do everything right, but at least make efforts in a similar direction.
Stefan
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
On 21 April 2017 21:24:38 GMT+03:00, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Couple of points that got my attention. They say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Open source instead of Free/Libre Software. They also mentioned Ubuntu. This was enough to me to stop having any respect
for
them. At least based on that post.
I think that if we want Free Software and related hardware to strive, we should be more respectful of people and companies who don't necessarily do everything right, but at least make efforts in a similar direction.
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 4/21/17, Allan Mwenda allanitomwesh@gmail.com wrote:
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
On 21 April 2017 21:24:38 GMT+03:00, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Couple of points that got my attention. They say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Open source instead of Free/Libre Software. They also mentioned Ubuntu. This was enough to me to stop having any respect
for
them. At least based on that post.
I think that if we want Free Software and related hardware to strive, we should be more respectful of people and companies who don't necessarily do everything right, but at least make efforts in a similar direction.
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
It's not necessarily a trap, because collapse would be the result of over night change. However, if one of us should try collaborating with them, their should always be a pressure to do more or to think of ways to do more. As for why there would be collapse, it would be because people not associated with the culture would not know how 'Not' to "abuse the system".
On Apr 21, 2017 3:40 PM, "Allan Mwenda" allanitomwesh@gmail.com wrote:
Compromise is a trap
Agreed. But I don't see anyone advocating compromise.
If Luke were to say "It's okay, make an EOMA-68 laptop with proprietary hardware, and just ship blobs on the EOMA-68 card that comes with it", that would be compromise -- but that's not gonna happen, and I don't see anyone suggesting it should.
It's not compromise to work with someone who currently sells laptops with proprietary hardware, to develop an EOMA-68 laptop that meets the same standards (including "no proprietary hardware") as any other EOMA-68 housing.
Allan, please help me remember never to try to make a deal with you.
Compromise is the art of two or more parties entering into a partnership where they each get some of what they want. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours.
The journey to completely open software is one of those journeys of the proverbial thousand steps. Each step can be - and, in some sense, *must* be - both a compromise and a step forward. Only with enough of both will you get what you ultimately want.
If you refuse to compromise with someone, you are essentially proposing that you get all of what you want and that they get nothing. The result will be a lose-lose, because they will walk away and make a better deal with someone else - and you will get nothing, because you won't deal.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying a little - but the point remains and is valid.
"Please let us add *insert proprietary here* because its *convenient/affordable/any other reason other than good for the user*" There's making deals that are win win and theres digging a hole that you then get stuck in yourself.
On 21 April 2017 23:02:17 GMT+03:00, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Allan, please help me remember never to try to make a deal with you.
Compromise is the art of two or more parties entering into a partnership where they each get some of what they want. You scratch my back and I will scratch yours.
The journey to completely open software is one of those journeys of the proverbial thousand steps. Each step can be - and, in some sense, *must* be - both a compromise and a step forward. Only with enough of both will you get what you ultimately want.
If you refuse to compromise with someone, you are essentially proposing that you get all of what you want and that they get nothing. The result will be a lose-lose, because they will walk away and make a better deal with someone else - and you will get nothing, because you won't deal.
Yes, I'm oversimplifying a little - but the point remains and is valid.
Let's do bear in mind that they do have real reasons for keeping proprietary blobs in their systems. While these reasons do not measure to the ethical concerns, think about this in terms of a much more grossly obvious circumstance: if a barbarian kills two people in bandit raids everyday, and you convince that barbarian to kill one less person each day, then yes they are still killing, but you're not in the end compromising your principles by making the observation that the situation is better and are in no way contradicting those morals by praising the barbarian for being less murderous. Obviously this is a gross comparison but I think it demonstrates a universal principle very well.
On 4/21/17, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
Lyberta talked about (and I responded about) "respect", not "compromise" or even "collaborate".
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Having less proprietary software, means less backdoors, less surveillance, less knowledge barriers, less remote theft of computing resources, etc. It's not perfect, but it's less of the disturbing stuff.
On 4/21/17, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
Let's do bear in mind that they do have real reasons for keeping proprietary blobs in their systems. While these reasons do not measure to the ethical concerns, think about this in terms of a much more grossly obvious circumstance: if a barbarian kills two people in bandit raids everyday, and you convince that barbarian to kill one less person each day, then yes they are still killing, but you're not in the end compromising your principles by making the observation that the situation is better and are in no way contradicting those morals by praising the barbarian for being less murderous. Obviously this is a gross comparison but I think it demonstrates a universal principle very well.
On 4/21/17, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
Lyberta talked about (and I responded about) "respect", not "compromise" or even "collaborate".
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 04/21/2017 08:19 PM, John Luke Gibson wrote:
Having less proprietary software, means less backdoors, less surveillance, less knowledge barriers, less remote theft of computing resources, etc. It's not perfect, but it's less of the disturbing stuff.
I agree with that thought process, but its still not ideal or as good as it should be.
System76 isn't really a good idea due to the ubuntu and linux rather than even debian or free software and libre... Trisquel would be by far better free software wise, but I think you get my point, Ubuntu is nowhere near as free software friendly as debian. at least by default without turning it into trisquel. I am sure thinkpenguin knows this all too well.
libreboot is not ideal either, because it uses crappy intel processors even if the intel me is removed, and there are other issues which are problematic... which is why eoma68 standard is greatly needed in this world.
On 4/21/17, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
Let's do bear in mind that they do have real reasons for keeping proprietary blobs in their systems. While these reasons do not measure to the ethical concerns, think about this in terms of a much more grossly obvious circumstance: if a barbarian kills two people in bandit raids everyday, and you convince that barbarian to kill one less person each day, then yes they are still killing, but you're not in the end compromising your principles by making the observation that the situation is better and are in no way contradicting those morals by praising the barbarian for being less murderous. Obviously this is a gross comparison but I think it demonstrates a universal principle very well.
On 4/21/17, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
Lyberta talked about (and I responded about) "respect", not "compromise" or even "collaborate".
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
By your analogy, you need to teach the barbarians to farm, then noone dies period. If you lived in that village and the barbarians came and it was your wife's turn to be slaughtered for the greater good...
On 22 April 2017 03:17:19 GMT+03:00, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
Let's do bear in mind that they do have real reasons for keeping proprietary blobs in their systems. While these reasons do not measure to the ethical concerns, think about this in terms of a much more grossly obvious circumstance: if a barbarian kills two people in bandit raids everyday, and you convince that barbarian to kill one less person each day, then yes they are still killing, but you're not in the end compromising your principles by making the observation that the situation is better and are in no way contradicting those morals by praising the barbarian for being less murderous. Obviously this is a gross comparison but I think it demonstrates a universal principle very well.
On 4/21/17, Stefan Monnier monnier@iro.umontreal.ca wrote:
Compromise is a trap and why theres no libre wifi and gpus
Lyberta talked about (and I responded about) "respect", not "compromise" or even "collaborate".
Stefan
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Well i dunno, system76 would want to make the fastest card not necessarily the freest.
On 20 April 2017 19:14:27 GMT+03:00, Mike Leimon leimon@gmail.com wrote:
Luke, et.al.
I saw this blog post a couple of nights ago:
http://blog.system76.com/post/159767214983/entering-phase-three
and I was thinking to myself that it might not be a half bad idea to try and contact these guys and see if they might be interested in making an EOMA-68 laptop and maybe even get into the business of designing EOMA-68 CPU cards.
While I think that they have more traditional computer/laptops in mind for the future, I could also see the possibility of them offering one EOMA-68 laptop for sale along a number of other traditional style laptops (why shouldn't they hedge their bets?).
Allow me to pull the most relevant quote from their post to support my theory: """
- Easy to work on and expand
At every step along the way we ask, “How does this decision affect serviceability”. Open it, change it, expand it. Our product will be flexible.
"""
To me the EOMA-68 paradigm sounds like an incredibly good fit. Since it sounds like they are probably still a couple of years away from trying to launch a line of custom laptops. Right now might be the best time to try and bring this project to their attention... heck, if they are curious enough it might even be worth it to send them an A20 CPU card and one of the mini desktops (after they are completed of course).
-Mike
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:10 AM, Allan Mwenda allanitomwesh@gmail.com wrote:
Well i dunno, system76 would want to make the fastest card not necessarily the freest.
i sort-of thought about this overnight, and i think you're right, allan. the hardware they're selling is typically mid to high-end x86 hardware [plus yes they talk about ubuntu] something like EOMA200 would be a much better bet... but then so would many of the other (industrial) modular standards for their needs.
ah. i just had a thought. the powerpc laptop team... http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/ if system76 worked with *them* that would be absolutely fantastic.
oo interesting, they just announced that they're going ahead with a crowd-funding campaign.
l.
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