Hi,
There has been a bump in the last few hours and the campaing went up to over 70k, yay \o/
Reading the article on liliputing [1], I saw this, which surprised me:
"The campaign has raised over $60,000 so far, which is less than half way to the goal of $150,000. But Leighton tells me that if he raises around $100,000 he expects to be able to begin production of the items people are ordering: the higher dollar amount was chosen under the assumption that more people would be making pledges for higher-priced items."
But my understanding of how crowdsupply works is that they only get the money from the pledges if the campaign goal is achieved.
As an example, and again "AFAIUI", if the campaign had been set up so that there was a "base goal" of 70k$ and one or several "stretch goals" up to 150k, the money would have been collected at this very moment (when it just reached 70k); but as things stand with how the campaign was set up, it's an all-or-nothing at 150k.
So, in the case that the goal is not achieved, what's the plan to begin production if the money cannot be collected?
Cheers.
[1] http://liliputing.com/2016/08/new-options-added-emoa68-pc-card-crowdfunding-...
El Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 09:34:37PM +0100, Manuel A. Fernandez Montecelo deia:
So, in the case that the goal is not achieved, what's the plan to begin production if the money cannot be collected?
I think there's not plan yet. The only sure plan is if it makes 150000$ production should start. If it reaches less it might or might not depending on the rewards claimed and the cost of producing that.
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2016-August/011499.html http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2016-August/011530.html
Strictly speaking the deal was that nobody pays unless they collectively pay 150000$, but then it depends on whether the claimed items can or cannot be produced with the pledged amount in the end. If they can't be produced, then it seems obvious that they won't. If they can be produced with the available money, then either crowdsupply is strict and declares the campaign failed or they arrange some change of goal or something and collect the money as long as Luke will have agreed to provide the rewards with the money raised. Worse case crowdsupply does not collect the money and Luke sets up a new campaign with the goals closer to what has been achieved in the end. The problem there would be if the campaign had to take 2 more months and that would delay the project, maybe cause scheduling problems or higher costs... But if the new campaign can last one week or two, and all backers are contacted, and the same rewards are offered at the same pledge amounts, I doubt many if any backers would not join the "new" campaign. Since that seems logical, and it's hard to argue that most backers pledged because of the 150000$ goal instead of because of the reward and its associated pledge amount, which they could get despite the 150000$, it does not seem too likely that crowdsupply even requires this second campaign. But I'm not Luke, I'm not crowdsupply... I don't know.
As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type. For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe 18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).
The non recurring costs are possibly estimated so that those 100000 $ you quoted would pay the cost of producing the rewards currently pledged for, but nobody knows what will the people ask for in the end, so it is premature to evaluate.
Hi Luke,
With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop? I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.
Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?
Adel
Muhammed Adel Afzal Barrister and Solicitor, Notary Public
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:41 AM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Hi Luke,
With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop?
should be okay
I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.
good idea - bear in mind though that with this design you'll need to be careful doing that as it's built-in, it's not a removable design. plug / socket inside the case.
Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?
it's a chicony keyboard for an asus 15.6in laptop - P/Ns are on here: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/
it's pretty good. full-sized keys. there's also an update coming out in the next couple of days, albert kindly demo'd the AZERTY keyboard firmware he's been working on.
l.
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement? I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?
Adel
Muhammed Adel Afzal Barrister and Solicitor, Notary Public
----- Original Message ----- From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net To: "Linux on small ARM machines" arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:46:27 AM Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] battery and keyboard
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:41 AM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Hi Luke,
With the laptop, can the user disconnect the battery and use only the power adapter to power the laptop?
should be okay
I like to do this when I don't need the battery, to preserve the battery when I use a laptop.
good idea - bear in mind though that with this design you'll need to be careful doing that as it's built-in, it's not a removable design. plug / socket inside the case.
Could you describe the keyboard that you plan to put in the laptop? How does it compare to, for example, Thinkpad and Macbook laptop keyboards?
it's a chicony keyboard for an asus 15.6in laptop - P/Ns are on here: http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/
it's pretty good. full-sized keys. there's also an update coming out in the next couple of days, albert kindly demo'd the AZERTY keyboard firmware he's been working on.
l.
_______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?
yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them, the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be *real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?
yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll be fine.
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?
it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch is an easy enough task.
l.
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the issue).
Thanks,
Russell If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!
On 11/08/2016, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?
yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them, the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be *real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?
yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll be fine.
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?
it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch is an easy enough task.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
And sorry for the non-free link here, but this is just to back up my earlier point. So here's the link:
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/software/unifying
True, it runs on 2.4GHz radio, so you could reverse engineer it if you were bored for a month. But, as you can see the software itself (which controls the pairing options if you want to use a different receiver, or fix issues) only "works" on W'doze.
HTH,
Thanks
Russell
On 11/08/2016, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the issue).
Thanks,
Russell If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!
On 11/08/2016, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?
yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them, the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be *real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?
yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll be fine.
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?
it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch is an easy enough task.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Actually, there is a Chrome browser add-on that lets you do this as well. I do it all the time on my chrome OS devices
-Joe
On Aug 11, 2016 12:17 PM, "Russell Hyer" russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
And sorry for the non-free link here, but this is just to back up my earlier point. So here's the link:
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/software/unifying
True, it runs on 2.4GHz radio, so you could reverse engineer it if you were bored for a month. But, as you can see the software itself (which controls the pairing options if you want to use a different receiver, or fix issues) only "works" on W'doze.
HTH,
Thanks
Russell
On 11/08/2016, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers. The issue here is that out of the box these support only the devices that they've been paired with at the factory, but can support up to 6 if memory serves (you can check out the true limit on the L'tech website). Anyway, to actually pair these (ok, re-pair (that sounds awful, but you get the gist)) you need the software and that's only actually made available on proprietary OSes, typically Windows and Mac. (Of course, the nice thing is that the pairing info is stored in the receiver at the hardware level, so you'd only need minimal contact with non-libre systems, but I thought I should at least highlight the issue).
Thanks,
Russell If watchmaking were a science, eureka moments would occur on time!
On 11/08/2016, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca
wrote:
Thanks for the reply Luke. My friend had an Acer laptop and I thought that the keyboard in that was great.
Will you sell replacement batteries or tell us where to order a replacement?
yeahhh. these are e-bike batteries, i'll have to stock up on them, the company that makes them is a wholesaler. you also have to be *real* careful, they can deliver an *enormous* amount of current - the tabs are metal 1in wide and 0.5mm thick coming out of the battery.
I suppose that if I did not want to run the battery down while I am working I could use the USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone, with a keyboard and mouse, and my cell phone charger to power the EOMA68 computer card, right?
yeahyeah, no that's the whole idea. you'll also need a USB hub (or one of those logitech wireless keyboard + mouse combo usb dongles) i'm using a logitech K400r you can look that up
or if you get the right adapter you can use one of those external battery packs to charge up / operate off of: find a 12v one and you'll be fine.
Would it be possible to adjust the wiring or add a switch to disconnect the battery? Could any electrician do it or would you consider making instructions? Or would it be safer to leave it stock?
it should be doable by a competent electrician. the casework designs are available so 3D printing a version with room for a switch is an easy enough task.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Russell Hyer russell.hyer@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
It seems that you're referring to the Logitech unifying receivers.
probably! don't honestly know, too busy to check (sorry!) i'm mentioning it to illustrate the multi-HID USB endpoint feature rather than anything else, which means that you can plug in only 1 USB... "thing" in order to use 2 "devices". there's almost certainly wired variants of the exact same thing, the point is: with these types of mulit-usb-endpoint devices you don't need to plug in a USB hub into the OTG socket.
l.
El Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:06:17AM +0200, Xavi Drudis Ferran deia:
As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type. For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe 18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).
Nah, scratch that. It's not on track for 250 MOQ of each, it's already reached (and on track for more).
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Xavi Drudis Ferran xdrudis@tinet.cat wrote:
El Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:06:17AM +0200, Xavi Drudis Ferran deia:
As to MOQs, there was talk of needing 250 PCMCIA connectors of each type. For one type we are beyond that already, and for the other there are maybe 18 missing and it looks on track to reach MOQ (and even if it didn't it would mean at most a 360 $ loss, since the breakout board is 20$, so no big deal).
Nah, scratch that. It's not on track for 250 MOQ of each, it's already reached (and on track for more).
there's been a steady increase of pledge for about the past 36 hours.... ah ha! https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-ca...
that'll be why :)
l.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 09:55:47AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
there's been a steady increase of pledge for about the past 36 hours.... ah ha! https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/support-the-libre-tea-computer-card-a-ca...
that'll be why :)
l.
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping / $10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company, and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...
Bob
On Thu Aug 11 12:08:59 BST 2016, Robert Wilkinson wrote:
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping / $10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company, and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...
I expect that Crowd Supply is handling the logistics of shipping:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics
I've paid more than $10 for shipping from the US so it didn't worry me too much, though I can understand why it might seem a bit strange.
David
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
Wolfgang
Am 11.08.2016 um 14:19 schrieb David Boddie:
On Thu Aug 11 12:08:59 BST 2016, Robert Wilkinson wrote:
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping / $10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay for shipping to the UK. I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company, and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...
I expect that Crowd Supply is handling the logistics of shipping:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics
I've paid more than $10 for shipping from the US so it didn't worry me too much, though I can understand why it might seem a bit strange.
David
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On Thu Aug 11 13:56:51 BST 2016, Wolfgang wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
I think so, but note that the handling fees are only charged for each package so, while the total for shipping is probably a multiple of $10 for the number of items shipped, you only pay the handling fees once.
However, maybe the specific details are different for this campaign. I was just reading from the following page and seeing what happens when I add and remove items from the checkout.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/fulfillment-and-logistics
David
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop, a breakout board, and a cable set, it says:
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting more for moral support reasons), and get the cables elsewhere: I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong, because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes, and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)
Wolfram
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Wolfram Kahl kahl@cas.mcmaster.ca wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop, a breakout board, and a cable set, it says:
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting more for moral support reasons), and get the cables elsewhere: I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong, because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes, and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)
due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East (because of import duties, VAT @ 20%, and import surcharges) we're going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one* one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being "parts" and "kits".
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and thinkpenguin) definitely do.
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were something mad like $75.
now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience - of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+ different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not* result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is covered with the exception of Antarctica!
because then we can look at it.
but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too high, ok! :)
another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're presenting are better funded.
viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational, but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an *idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale. this is "gift economy".
if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full refund.
l.
You could also check cost from China directly for all countries outside us.
You can check similar postage cost from aliexpress but if i remember correctly I pay about 40 to 60 usd for similar packages to eu. In china dhl is least expensive by my experience.
You could also try normal post but it sometimes fails.
Brasil looks expensive usually from China.
India, you have to be careful who are you using as if government controls company (i.e ems) it takes really long time and hussle with customs. Dhl works ok.
On Thursday, 11 August 2016, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Wolfram Kahl <kahl@cas.mcmaster.ca javascript:;> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop, a breakout board, and a cable set, it says:
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the
United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for
the
micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting more for moral support reasons), and get the cables elsewhere: I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the
privilege
of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong, because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes, and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!''
;-)
due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East (because of import duties, VAT @ 20%, and import surcharges) we're going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one* one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being "parts" and "kits".
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and thinkpenguin) definitely do.
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were something mad like $75.
now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience - of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+ different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not* result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is covered with the exception of Antarctica!
because then we can look at it.
but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too high, ok! :)
another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're presenting are better funded.
viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational, but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an *idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale. this is "gift economy".
if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full refund.
l.
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Hi Luke,
I didn't mean to be confrontational, and even included a smiley in an attempt to document that. ;-)
I wasn't arguing at all against your choice of the US as shipping hub; you discussed that before. Instead I was trying to get more attention the point that Wolfgang had raised, and that I havven't seen really addressed yet:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
You somewhat anser this by the following:
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and thinkpenguin) definitely do.
I can perfectly take that for an answer, but I probably am not alone in feeling that this is suboptimal. To exaggerate the situation a bit:
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were something mad like $75.
Now if you had had them send you two 40 gram Computer Cards in a single package, would you have been happy to pay $150 for that, even though you accepted to pay $75 for the single card?
From my experience with DHL etc., I would expect the two cards to cost
the same $75, since they fit into the same (rather oversized...) envelope.
Perhaps more directly relevant to the project, I was trying to make the following argument: If shipping costs for multiple items can be reduced, then people outside the US will likely order more of the small items together with the cards and micro-desktops.
Cheers!
Wolfram
Luke, can you ship through the US Postal Service? They offer international shipping, and the (admittedly few) times I've used International Priority Mail, it's beaten the crap out of FedEx/UPS/etc pricing.
Sure, it takes about three weeks to get anywhere, but it comes with tracking and a guaranteed delivered-by date (which is more than you get with International First Class -- on both counts -- although I've heard you can get tracking with First Class if you ask them to do it Registered... that's not confirmed tho).
Not to mention that you'd probably qualify for the USPS' "bulk mailer" (read: junk mail) rates, at the package quantities you're dealing with. I'm definitely no expert in that but I can sort of read regulationspeak and legalese, if it's any help, since Mom is a retired attorney -- I was her research assistant for a few years...
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Wolfram Kahl kahl@cas.mcmaster.ca wrote:
Hi Luke,
I didn't mean to be confrontational, and even included a smiley in an attempt to document that. ;-)
thxman. doing too much, here. nights are... rough.
I wasn't arguing at all against your choice of the US as shipping hub; you discussed that before. Instead I was trying to get more attention the point that Wolfgang had raised, and that I havven't seen really addressed yet:
... i forget whom i've repeated things to, it's been so many times
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
You somewhat anser this by the following:
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and thinkpenguin) definitely do.
I can perfectly take that for an answer, but I probably am not alone in feeling that this is suboptimal. To exaggerate the situation a bit:
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were something mad like $75.
Now if you had had them send you two 40 gram Computer Cards in a single package, would you have been happy to pay $150 for that, even though you accepted to pay $75 for the single card? From my experience with DHL etc., I would expect the two cards to cost the same $75, since they fit into the same (rather oversized...) envelope.
... because they go approximately in 0.5kg increments, yes.
no, for the "budget" international shipping they go strictly by weight. yes you can put 2 computer cards into a bag and it will weigh less than 2 bags + 2 computer cards... but not a lot less.
Perhaps more directly relevant to the project, I was trying to make the following argument: If shipping costs for multiple items can be reduced, then people outside the US will likely order more of the small items together with the cards and micro-desktops.
honestly i'm inclined to trust the experience of both thinkpenguin and crowdsupply, both of whom have an extraordinarily large amount of experience with world-wide shipping costs. crowdsupply's numbers are *average* numbers not actual costs. certain locations will be lower cost, others will be so ridiculous you'd be hard pressed to believe it. certainly i know that chris knows (and we do as well, way back when arm-netbook ml started up) that stuff sent to italy has a tendency to... disappear. you do *NOT* send stuff to italy that is by standard international post, even if it is insured. it just... doesn't arrive - period. so you have to send it by courier.
honestly i have so much to deal with already i'm inclined to just hand it off to crowdsupply and say, "here - you deal with it" - that's one of the key reasons why i picked them, so that that can be done. luckily though my sponsor thinkpenguin deal with USPS and International Shipping all the time.
we'll sort it out.
l.
If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?
Adel
----- Original Message ----- From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net To: "Linux on small ARM machines" arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 3:46:55 PM Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Shipping costs
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Wolfram Kahl kahl@cas.mcmaster.ca wrote:
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 02:56:51PM +0200, m016fec3 wrote:
I have pledged for more than one item and have the question, others have them too, if the items will be send bundled and if yes, will the shipping costs nevertheless be summed up as if the items would have been sent seperately?
If I put together a multi-item order, say two cards, a micro-desktop, a breakout board, and a cable set, it says:
| A surcharge of $52.00 applies for orders shipping outside of the United States.
And that for a package that will be hardly bigger than that needed for the micro-desktop alone.
This motivates me pretty strongly to remove the low-cost items from the order, live without the breakout board (which I would be getting more for moral support reasons), and get the cables elsewhere: I wouldn't mind paying a considerable part of the $15US for the cable set as support to the project, but paying another $10US just for the privilege of doing that, and shipping it a few km outside the US, just feels wrong, because ``This is NOT how it should work'' in my eyes, and the whole campaing is really about ``This is how it should work!'' ;-)
due to the cost even of bulk shipping into Europe from the Far East (because of import duties, VAT @ 20%, and import surcharges) we're going to need to bring everything into the US and use the U.S. as a distribution hub. that way we will pay *one* shipping cost and *one* one-off $200 fee with zero-rated customs duty due to this being "parts" and "kits".
from there, the costs of shipping are known to be more expensive outside of the US, due to surcharges which are *totally outside* of our control. this isn't something we can ignore. more experienced people than i have set the shipping costs based on years of direct experience. i don't know what they are - but crowdsupply (and thinkpenguin) definitely do.
my experience has been limited to using DHL and Fedex for personal shipping of items: the costs for sending a 40 gram Computer Card were something mad like $75.
now, if you happen to know of a creative way - from your experience - of dealing with bulk shipping of items from the Far East into 40+ different countries (last time i checked) in a way that does *not* result in massive costs, *please tell us*. we have to deliver to Russia, Ireland, Brazil, India - pretty much every continent is covered with the exception of Antarctica!
because then we can look at it.
but if you don't actually know, please don't complain that it's too high, ok! :)
another way to look at it, is: if we *do* happen to find a less costly way to bring items into Europe and get them distributed out without massive surcharges and taxation (legally, that is), then any money saved can be put towards ensuring that the ideas we're presenting are better funded.
viewed that way i'm sure you'd agree would be less confrontational, but also i feel it's a very important reminder that you're backing an *idea* - you're not ordering a product, there's no contract of sale. this is "gift economy".
if you're not happy to receive a gift from me - if you've misunderstood that - please email me off-list and i'll arrange a full refund.
l.
_______________________________________________ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?
i'll be making absolutely sure that everything works before they go out, and then make absolutely sure that they're packed carefully as well. bear in mind that the laptop is a kit! as this is not a "business" - there's going to be barely enough cash to get things to everybody - we can't offer a warranty unless i added something like an extra 20% on top of the existing pledge levels in order to have sufficient spare cash to be able to order a set of spares, and if we did that chances would be high that people went "yikes that's way too much!!" and we would automatically have less backers... thus risk not reaching the MOQs.
if we were set up as an established business - or if we had even one extra sponsor willing to full-time fund the project with an extra... say... $5,000 to $10,000 over the course of the past 2 years, this would be a radically different proposition. we would have had enough cash to create full working prototypes, to present them to the FSF and get the RYF Certification in advance, for example. the videos that we've done would have been with fully-working prototypes. i would have been able to show people those prototypes at hopeconf 2016 in NYC, and much much more.
instead we're juust about managing, which is in many ways a good thing because you can be absolutely certain that we're not spending money frivolously! it's a bit seat-of-the-pants but i'm happy with the way things have turned out.
l.
Round one: seat of the pants. And after that, hopefully an increasingly successful business. Good luck Luke.
Adel
----- Original Message ----- From: "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net To: "Linux on small ARM machines" arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:42:52 PM Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] Shipping costs
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
If the gift is defective in some way ... will you replace/repair/refund?
i'll be making absolutely sure that everything works before they go out, and then make absolutely sure that they're packed carefully as well. bear in mind that the laptop is a kit! as this is not a "business" - there's going to be barely enough cash to get things to everybody - we can't offer a warranty unless i added something like an extra 20% on top of the existing pledge levels in order to have sufficient spare cash to be able to order a set of spares, and if we did that chances would be high that people went "yikes that's way too much!!" and we would automatically have less backers... thus risk not reaching the MOQs.
if we were set up as an established business - or if we had even one extra sponsor willing to full-time fund the project with an extra... say... $5,000 to $10,000 over the course of the past 2 years, this would be a radically different proposition. we would have had enough cash to create full working prototypes, to present them to the FSF and get the RYF Certification in advance, for example. the videos that we've done would have been with fully-working prototypes. i would have been able to show people those prototypes at hopeconf 2016 in NYC, and much much more.
instead we're juust about managing, which is in many ways a good thing because you can be absolutely certain that we're not spending money frivolously! it's a bit seat-of-the-pants but i'm happy with the way things have turned out.
l.
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--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Muhammed Adel Afzal adel@ncf.ca wrote:
Round one: seat of the pants.
.... yeah :)
And after that, hopefully an increasingly successful business. Good luck Luke.
thx adel.
l.
Now I understand and accept, what shipping costs means: It is not the actuall shiping cost for delivering the goods to my home, but my pledge to make worldwide shipping possible. In some countries these cost are lower and in others they are higher.
So people in contries, where the actual shipping costs are higher, are able to pledge and the EOMA68 can get a foodhold in these countries too.
I was misled by the term shipping cost and as I don't want to give more than the neccessary money to the delivering firm, I thought, bundeling would make it cheaper. So maybe CrowdSupply should make that clearer,
Wolfgang
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:42 AM, m016fec3 hier@wolfgangromey.de wrote:
Now I understand and accept, what shipping costs means: It is not the actuall shiping cost for delivering the goods to my home, but my pledge to make worldwide shipping possible. In some countries these cost are lower and in others they are higher.
yes.
So people in contries, where the actual shipping costs are higher, are able to pledge and the EOMA68 can get a foodhold in these countries too.
correct.
I was misled by the term shipping cost and as I don't want to give more than the neccessary money to the delivering firm, I thought, bundeling would make it cheaper.
it doesn't
So maybe CrowdSupply should make that clearer,
yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?
l.
* Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net [160812 16:11]:
yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?
solidarity supplement to shipping and handling ?
Cheers,
Christian
-- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease.
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 04:16:30PM +0200, Christian Kellermann wrote:
- Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net [160812 16:11]:
yeahhh i feel it's a little complicated (as we've witnessed!) to put on the page, although the wording "shipping cost" doesn't help, i have to agree. not sure what term could be used in its place?
solidarity supplement to shipping and handling ?
Cheers,
Christian
-- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease.
I think that I was confused because the shipping was free to the USA - had their been a global flat rate, I would probably not have questioned the cost.
However, this does rather beg the question as to why residents of the USA should not show solidarity with the residents of (arguably less affluent) other countries ... But, perhaps, that is for another day :-)
Bob
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Robert Wilkinson bob@fourtheye.org wrote:
I think that I was confused because the shipping was free to the USA
- had their been a global flat rate, I would probably not have
questioned the cost.
However, this does rather beg the question as to why residents of the USA should not show solidarity with the residents of (arguably less affluent) other countries ... But, perhaps, that is for another day :-)
very good point!!
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Robert Wilkinson bob@fourtheye.org wrote:
I looked at https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 and thought about pledging some money for the Practically Perfect Computer Card.
However, I am curious about the shipping costs - Free US Shipping / $10 Worldwide.
Is there a reason why the shipping to the US is free and I must pay for shipping to the UK.
because of totally different taxation and government setup. chris explained this to me in great detail as he has a UK-based distribution centre and, shockingly, the cost per item in bureaucracy and taxation is greater than the cost of a good proportion of the items that he sells.
whilst i really don't like the word because i had no idea, growing up in the UK, quite how "Socialist" the UK really is, the UK and other EU countries really ARE extremely "Socialist". "Free" health-care. "Free" dole money. "Free" state pensions... they're not... but they all have to be paid for.... and they're paid for by increasing taxation, and that means adding on import taxes and VAT.
by total contrast chris has to pay for and take direct responsibility for EVERYTHING himself.... but the advantage is: the cost of importing into the USA is a one-off $200 fee spread out across the entire consignment. as these are "components" and "kits" there isn't even any import duty (or, it's zero-rated).
it's radically different in other words.
I think that Rhombus Tech is a UK company,
it's not - and never will be. it was registered as a CIC a few years ago but my associates (who it turns out are pathologically only interested in profit - good thing i found that out eh?) shut it down without informing or consulting me.
i'll re-establish the CIC later. if you're not familiar with why Corporations are pathologically dangerous, look up the online documentary, "The Corporation". you need only listen to the premise which is covered in the first few minutes.
and I *guess* that the cards are made in Asia...
i'm an international traveller, i'm currently in Keene, NH. i'll go where i'm needed most. that means going to china and keeping an eye on things as they're manufactured. it'll be fun. i'll also be able to take pictures and videos and keep people posted.
l.
I my view, it makes no sense at this moment to speculate abaout what will happen, if the goal of the crowfunding campaign is not reached. I am sure, that Luke will prepaire the next steps, if that is the case.
One should put all the energy in spreading the word about the EOMA68 until the end of the campaign.
Wolfgang
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Christian Kellermann -
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David Boddie -
Hrvoje Lasic -
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m016fec3 -
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Muhammed Adel Afzal -
Robert Wilkinson -
Russell Hyer -
Tarak -
Wolfram Kahl -
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