Hello:
I read the white paper referenced on the Crowd Supply campaign page [1], and I was particularly interested in the section on "good enough" computing. The following paragraphs describe some problems that, as far as I recall, aren't addressed in the rest of the paper:
Now, in 2015, "good enough computing" has been cross-examined, and
found wanting - perhaps not for the right reasons though. The key problem of having a three to five year old computer is not so much that it can't do the job it was designed to do: if the computer was not connected to the Internet it could continue to be used for its designated tasks until it suffered major component failure (possibly in 8 to even 15 years time).
The problem is that the kinds of web sites that most people visit and
want to use are being designed with modern computers in mind. Even some recent smartphones are more powerful than high-end desktop computers of a decade ago. The latest version of Google Maps, for example, when using the "Street View", overwhelms a recent version of Firefox running on a computer with 8 Gigabytes of memory and a Dual-Core Dual-Hyper-threaded 2.4 Ghz processor, causing it to reach 100% CPU and lock up the entire machine.
But that's not so much the real problem: the real problem is the
inter-dependent nature of Software Development. Upgrading even just one application often brings in a set of dependencies that can result in the entire operating system needing an upgrade. And the longer the duration since a software upgrade, the less likely it is that one single application may be upgraded without huge impact and inconvenience. With no knowledge (or convenience) on how to upgrade software or hardware, most people pick the simplest solution...
This "upgrade treadmill" has bothered me for a while. Yes, with modular hardware like the EOMA68 cards and housings, the environmental impact is lessened because we only have to discard computer cards, not whole laptops. But unless we can stop the upgrade treadmill, we'll still have to discard our old computer cards when they would otherwise still be functional.
I remember the laptop I used throughout my university education, from 1999 to 2003. It had a 366 MHz mobile Pentium processor and 64 MB of RAM (later upgraded to 192 MB when I had to work on a fairly memory-hungry Java application under Windows). In its original configuration in 1999, that laptop was perfectly comfortable for everything I wanted to do, at least under Linux: Web browsing, email, word processing (including StarOffice), software development, and listening to music. Now I don't know if X would run at all in 64 MB of RAM.
As another illustration of how much waste the upgrade treadmill causes, here's a paraphrased bit of dialogue from the 2012 novel _Off to Be the Wizard_ by Scott Meyer. One character, a time traveler from 1984 whose last computer was a Commodore 64, asks, "What on earth can a person do with 4 gigabytes of RAM?". The other character, from 2012, replies, "Upgrade it immediately." Maybe that was supposed to be funny; the whole book is pretty light-hearted. But to me it's just sad.
So what can we do about this? The only idea I've got is that I and other software developers should do all of our work on the most underpowered computer that will let us get buy, rather than the nicest one we can afford. Then maybe, out of necessity, we won't be so wasteful. But then maybe we won't be as productive either, particularly if not being wasteful means we have to write everything in C or C++. And of course, it won't do any good if I'm the only one who chooses to make those sacrifices.
At least with free software, there's always the possibility to fork projects that succumb to the upgrade treadmill. For example, the MATE desktop environment is a fork of GNOME 2, and one of its explicit goals is to run well on non-compositing graphics hardware. I imagine MATE will run quite well on something like the A20 card. But still, we can't live in a forked, time-warped world. We have to interact with mainstream websites, which means using a mainstream browser or at least one of the major rendering engines. In this regard in particular, I wonder if the upgrade treadmill has already left the A20 behind, particularly since we can't use full GPU acceleration. I can certainly understand why the JZ4775 wasn't chosen, though it checks all the other boxes for ethical computing.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Sorry if this is too much of a rant or off-topic here. FWIW, I just backed the campaign by ordering an A20 card.
Matt
[1]: http://rhombus-tech.net/whitepapers/ecocomputing_07sep2015/
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:41 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
Hello:
I read the white paper referenced on the Crowd Supply campaign page [1], and I was particularly interested in the section on "good enough" computing. The following paragraphs describe some problems that, as far as I recall, aren't addressed in the rest of the paper:
great - ok let's go through it.
This "upgrade treadmill" has bothered me for a while. Yes, with modular hardware like the EOMA68 cards and housings, the environmental impact is lessened because we only have to discard computer cards,
don't do that!!! re-use them in down-stream devices, sell them please or give them away! for example using them in a freedombox, router or low-power NAS device which would normally be served by a struggling sub-500mhz MIPS, such devices could *really do* with a 1.2ghz dual-core boost! don't do it!
not whole laptops. But unless we can stop the upgrade treadmill, we'll still have to discard our old computer cards when they would otherwise still be functional.
$3 / month is the going rate for co-located low-power hosting services with a static IPv4 address. 2gbyte of RAM would be seriously welcome, the hosting company would be delighted to be able to slap more EOMA68-A20 computer cards into a convenient rack, i'm sure they'll take them off your hands.
software development, and listening to music. Now I don't know if X would run at all in 64 MB of RAM.
xf86fb version 3 would be fine - i compiled that up in 2004 using bitbake / openembedded... it worked perfectly, the actual executable was only... 450k.
.. but 64mb of RAM is a total luxury for routers, most openwrt devices have only 32mb, some even only have 8mb.
... looks a bit weird to be running a laptop from that era as a router, but hey.
So what can we do about this? The only idea I've got is that I and other software developers should do all of our work on the most underpowered computer that will let us get buy, rather than the nicest one we can afford. Then maybe, out of necessity, we won't be so wasteful. But then maybe we won't be as productive either, particularly if not being wasteful means we have to write everything in C or C++. And of course, it won't do any good if I'm the only one who chooses to make those sacrifices.
At least with free software, there's always the possibility to fork projects that succumb to the upgrade treadmill. For example, the MATE desktop environment is a fork of GNOME 2,
and Trinity is of KDE 3.5, i actually have that for my clients because they prefer it and are used to KDE 3.5 - i was forced to put XFCE4 in front of them recently, they *really* don't like it.
and one of its explicit goals is to run well on non-compositing graphics hardware. I imagine MATE will run quite well on something like the A20 card.
most likely.
But still, we can't live in a forked, time-warped world.
man i run fvwm2 - i realise i'm odd...
We have to interact with mainstream websites, which means using a mainstream browser or at least one of the major rendering engines. In this regard in particular, I wonder if the upgrade treadmill has already left the A20 behind, particularly since we can't use full GPU acceleration. I can certainly understand why the JZ4775 wasn't chosen, though it checks all the other boxes for ethical computing.
i'd add it... if i had time to, and if i can get past the boot phase. i have the early bootloader up, i just need to get u-boot into memory so i can investigate. but if i add it to this campaign, it will have to be at quite a high per-unit cost.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Sorry if this is too much of a rant or off-topic here.
no not at all, discussion is great. interested to hear from other people too
FWIW, I just backed the campaign by ordering an A20 card.
yay! thanks matt
Matt
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 7/25/2016 5:59 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
$3 / month is the going rate for co-located low-power hosting services with a static IPv4 address. 2gbyte of RAM would be seriously welcome, the hosting company would be delighted to be able to slap more EOMA68-A20 computer cards into a convenient rack, i'm sure they'll take them off your hands.
Interesting. I pay more than that to rent a virtual private server with less than 2 GB of RAM. Do you have any links to any such hosting providers in the US?
Matt
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
On 7/25/2016 5:59 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
$3 / month is the going rate for co-located low-power hosting services with a static IPv4 address. 2gbyte of RAM would be seriously welcome, the hosting company would be delighted to be able to slap more EOMA68-A20 computer cards into a convenient rack, i'm sure they'll take them off your hands.
Interesting. I pay more than that to rent a virtual private server with less than 2 GB of RAM. Do you have any links to any such hosting providers in the US?
google "raspberry pi colocated hosting". of course... you'll end up with your service having to go through a proprietary arbitrary and untrustworthy code execution gateway (the GPU) but that's no different from Intel's backdoor co-processor, so...
anyway don't expect them to be speed demons - maybe a good idea to get a cubieboard2 and do some tests, run apache on it etc. etc.
i strongly advise you to get the 85mbyte/sec "sandisk ultra plus" micro-sd cards for booting up.
l.
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:41:42 -0500 Matt Campbell mattcampbell@pobox.com wrote:
So what can we do about this? The only idea I've got is that I and other software developers should do all of our work on the most underpowered computer that will let us get buy, rather than the nicest one we can afford. Then maybe, out of necessity, we won't be so wasteful. But then maybe we won't be as productive either, particularly if not being wasteful means we have to write everything in C or C++. And of course, it won't do any good if I'm the only one who chooses to make those sacrifices.
At least with free software, there's always the possibility to fork projects that succumb to the upgrade treadmill. For example, the MATE desktop environment is a fork of GNOME 2, and one of its explicit goals is to run well on non-compositing graphics hardware. I imagine MATE will run quite well on something like the A20 card. But still, we can't live in a forked, time-warped world. We have to interact with mainstream websites, which means using a mainstream browser or at least one of the major rendering engines.
That's part of why we at TinyCore continue to do things. It's quite sad there's not more people in sw after efficiency - offhand I can only mention suckless. Incidentally, TC will run TinyX at 64mb ram, compatible with all the latest X apps, but don't expect Firefox to run with that ram ;)
You're also speaking to someone who wrote his own browser out of frustration with the existing ones. Uses Webkit, but with things like WebGL and HTML5 AV disabled, it's quite RAM-light (see the measurements at fifth-browser.sf.net/propaganda.html).
I don't really have a solution on how to attract more people to efficient sw dev. Even in libre circles I too often hear "it's only 2gb" "buy a new $thing then" "so get more RAM" (the latter when complaining about gcc needing 9gb in certain times, when I have 8 on this box).
For me some of it is by necessity, as a starving hacker I can't buy new hw every time I feel like it, but it also feels nice to have done something optimized and efficient.
Sorry for the derail Luke.
- Lauri
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk