In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, which they have done towards me, to email the cad files. About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad. About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be available until lkcl decides to provide them. I disagree on the decision. Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be provided immediately. Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad about the cad files in question he can make that choice.
In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source. The ad is misleading and deceptive. I have found no reservations about the mali gpu source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably not email the mali gpu source code, because they do not have it. They can email the pcb cad files because they have them. That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu source code and the pcb cad files from firefly. If firefly does not provide the data in question, then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source. Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form.
-------- Original Message -------- From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net Apparently from: arm-netbook-bounces@lists.phcomp.co.uk To: Eco-Conscious Computing arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] firefly 3399 all source software disclosed? Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 03:19:57 +0100
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:12 PM, David Niklas doark@mail.com wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:45:36 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 10:10 PM, zap zapper@openmailbox.org wrote:
On 05/07/2017 04:29 PM, ronwirring@Safe-mail.net wrote:
All software for the mali-t860 is open source?
none. MALI is proprietary.
I'm confused. Luke, if you plan on making an RK3399 into an eoma project how can you get RYF status if the mali GPU is closed source?
this was discussed a year ago or so. same process as for the EOMA68-A20
For that matter, how can you get RYF cert. for your current eoma68 project?
by leaving out the proprietary crap, simple as that. see below.
Unless I'm mistaken and it uses a different GPU?
it is actually a different GPU but that does not change the assessment process carried out by the FSF.
Or you just leave the HW crippled?
if the FSF considered the device to be "crippled" by it not having the 3D engine running, such that there was a genuine risk that people would actively seek out the installation of proprietary software.
in the case of e.g. a proprietary on-board WIFI device that *would* constitute a genuine risk of people *actively* seeking out proprietary firmware, and consequently the FSF quite naturally refuses to certify devices that contain non-removable proprietary on-board WIFI chips.
however in this case it actually turns out that if you use the proprietary 3D GPU for the tasks that i suspect you *believe* will quotes accelerate quotes certain operations (such as X11), the MALI embedded GPU (or its associated proprietary software - we can't actually tell which because we DON'T HAVE THE DAMN SOURCE) is so piss-poor at its job that it actually SLOWS DOWN CERTAIN OPERATIONS of X11.
given that 2D acceleration is already covered by fbturbo, and works really well *and is entirely libre software*, the *need* for the 3D engine just for basic Small-Office / Home-Office and day-to-day usage is NOT A CONCERN.
so does that make it clear that the evaluation process (which was described a year ago) is not just a hard-and-fixed process?
now, if on the other hand this was a dedicated Games Console product, *that would be an entirely different matter*. applying for RYF Certification on a 3D Games Console product which has a 3D GPU which *only works with proprietary software* would probably constitute too much of a risk that buyers *WOULD* in fact go out of their way to download the proprietary drivers.
but this design *isn't being sold as a 3D Games Console*, is it?
does that help clarify?
l.
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--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:07 PM, ronwirring@safe-mail.net wrote:
In a previous post, lkcl wrote the firefly rk3399 staff has the pcb cad files and he had no objection about firefly rejecting, which they have done towards me, to email the cad files.
aiyaaa, you didn't ask them did you? it's their proprietary and confidential business, and they're most likely under NDA with rockchip - please don't do that, ron.
About lkcl's crowd funding, the mali gpu source code is not available. Lkcl can make the mali gpu source code not available, because he makes a reservation in the text in his ad.
this is a rather confusing sentence-construction... ad... ad... ah, you may be referring to the crowd-funding text as "advertising". that word is reserved for businesses. this is *not* a business.
About the pcb cad files, lkcl has decided they will not be available until lkcl decides to provide them.
noooo, ron, most of the CAD files *are* available. the only ones that are not are the EOMA68-A20 ones because i've invested literally tens of thousands of dollars in their development, and if someone else goes and clones them (particularly in china) before the project's properly established it jeapordises the ENTIRE PROJECT. especially if they fuck it up and get it wrong.
I disagree on the decision.
tough.
Being open source I find it implicit that all data will be provided immediately.
normally i would agree with you 100%. and in the case of the housings those *are* 100% available.
however in the case of the A20 PCB i have to make an exception to not make them available *IMMEDIATELY*.
let me be clear. they WILL be made available. is that clear?
Because lkcl has made a reservation in his ad
there is no advertising, ron. advertising is a tool utilised by businesses. this is not a business.
about the cad files in question he can make that choice.
In the firefly rk3399' ad it says, the hardware is open source.
that means that the software is available under libre licenses. it does not mean that the *CAD* files for the *hardware* are available.
The ad is misleading and deceptive.
ron, i do notice that you are often confused by the use of words that potentially have multiple meanings, or that you sometimes cross-associate words.
in this case however you would be correct, there is the possibility of thinking that "open source" applies *to* the hardware CAD files.
however if they meant that, they would have used the words "open hardware" or "libre hardware".
it's a common enough mistake.
I have found no reservations about the mali gpu source code or the pcb cad files. Firefly can probably not email the mali gpu source code, because they do not have it.
that's correct. you'd be asking them for something they don't have, and are not legally obligated to provide even if they did.
They can email the pcb cad files because they have them.
ron: they are in absolutely no way obligated to you to provide them. they've used the right words, and it is *you* who is confused by their choice of words.
That is why I am going to demand both the mali gpu source code and the pcb cad files from firefly.
ron please don't do that. you will only harm the reputation of the free software community by doing so.
If firefly does not provide the data in question, then I will file a complaint to kickstarter. It is unacceptable calling something open source, if it is not all open source.
that's down to confusion on your part about wording, and it is their choice and right as a proprietary business what they choose to release and do not choose to release.
you have *no right* to tell them that they *have* to release the source code. that is down to them to learn the consequences of their decisions.
Of cource I will not mention lkcl in any form.
don't do it, ron. you'll cause damage to the reputation of the entire free software community, lessening the chances of companies like Acer from wanting to work with us.
l.
ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out.
people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware.
if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i guarantee it.
so please don't do it: it's unethical.
l.
If I may put in my two cents, I look at it from the perspective of two cultures. We aren't a country and don't have our own language, so it's a bit of a strange analogy to take literally but I mean it literally.
I see this as the same with being Vegan, different culture, different ethics. The most unethical thing is to try and destroy a culture first and foremost. By being isolationist and not cooperating with people and organizations that are part of a different culture and getting to a point where we can not-only respect our differences but appreciate them as well, one is ultimately setting out to BURDEN all life with their ethics. Filibustering the room; stopping all progress for the sake of one ideal.
I think thats part of what Luke means when saying: it's unethical.
On 5/31/17, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
ron: what you're about to attempt is called "coercion". it's unethical. the principles behind the libre concept are that ethics come first: very few people in the libre world actually truly understand that, because they think it's about the technology or about the "four freedoms" as specifically defined and laid out.
people need to be free to make their own choices. firefly (Acer) have made their choice - as they are entirely at liberty to do - to release the full source code of the SOFTWARE and NOT the hardware.
if you attempt to coerce them into doing something that they have not themselves chosen to do, they will not react as you intend, i guarantee it.
so please don't do it: it's unethical.
l.
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