I saw the recent response to my enquiry ("EOMA68-A20 Prototype Status") which was augmented by a campaign update:
"It’s going to take about a month to have the 8 Gbit 1600 MHz DDR3 x8 RAM ICs manufactured: we’re on the way. [...] All in all, it will likely take three months after getting the cards back from assembly before shipping begins. That puts actual delivery of the first units in late October."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/2-7-5-samples- received-dram-is-ok-micro-hdmi-to-confirm
This new information is much appreciated, and I hope that everything continues going to plan. Meanwhile, I noticed that the matter of future sales and products arose in another thread, with the intention being expressed that others will be producing and selling boards in future.
Now, there may have been some confusion in that other thread because I seem to recall talk of follow-up campaigns (although these may have been related to other hardware projects, not computer cards). Indeed, the August 2016 campaign update about the product roadmap had the following to say:
"We need your backing for this project and the current Computer Card before we can be in an established financial position to properly evaluate and bring you these faster Computer Cards."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/product-roadmap
The crucial question in the context of the above is therefore the following: who exactly is "we"? If not any of the parties behind the current campaign, who might it be? Here, I can understand some confusion or a mismatch in expectations.
But in any case, this discussion of future sales and products reminded me of a number of things, the first of which being the board designs:
"The only exception to this rule to release everything in advance is the PCB CAD files for the Computer Card. We’re planning to release the PCB CAD files for the Computer card once sufficient units are hit that ensures any third party manufacturing runs will not undermine the project’s development or stability."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/crowdfunding
Although "the point about the A20 running out of time" [1] has been made repeatedly since the start of the campaign (this quote being from March 2017 in the context of suitable NAND ICs), might it be envisaged that the design files be released for the A20 card to perhaps *stimulate* the project's development and stability after this campaign concludes?
Has there been any constructive interest from anyone to produce more boards using this design? I see that Olimex have recently introduced a variant of one of their A20-based products using the compatible T2 SoC [2]. So, the A20 still has an audience and a commercial life, apparently.
Another thing I found myself considering is the matter of the other cards mentioned during the course of the campaign. If they are not going to be offered via future campaigns, will they be offered by existing partners or collaborators? For instance:
http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/ http://rhombus-tech.net/rock_chips/rk3288/ http://rhombus-tech.net/nexell/s5p6818/
The first two of these had been prototyped, as I recall (and has been documented), and so I imagine that there is some value in seeing them become products, subject to economic and technical viability, the latter of which reminding me of the following remarks:
"The rk3288 is not a low-power chip, and the heat sink supplied (pictured above), is not adequate for any CPU-intensive activity, quickly throttling performance when it gets too hot."
https://forum.armbian.com/topic/4614-asus-tinker-board/
(The above is just an acknowledgement of the difficulties of selecting products, not an invitation to discuss the details.)
Finally, I realised that the current campaign began almost two years ago. I think the second anniversary of its launch will be on Friday this coming week. It would be interesting to hear any reflections on the position of this initiative two years on, whether (and how) the roadmap might change, and what still needs to be done to bring this modular computing vision to fruition.
Apologies if I missed various updates or announcements that happen to answer some of my questions!
Paul
[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/complexities-of- hardware-progress-and-travel
[2] https://olimex.wordpress.com/2018/06/20/a20-olinuxino-lime-revision-h-is- now-in-stock-the-oshw-linux-computer-now-support-emmc-and-can-be-produced- with-industrial-grade-temperature-4085c/
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 10:01 PM, Paul Boddie paul@boddie.org.uk wrote:
I saw the recent response to my enquiry ("EOMA68-A20 Prototype Status")
which
was augmented by a campaign update:
"It’s going to take about a month to have the 8 Gbit 1600 MHz DDR3 x8 RAM
ICs
manufactured: we’re on the way. [...] All in all, it will likely take
three
months after getting the cards back from assembly before shipping begins.
That
puts actual delivery of the first units in late October."
Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components now for 1000 cards and 500 mds.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/2-7-5-samples- received-dram-is-ok-micro-hdmi-to-confirm
This new information is much appreciated, and I hope that everything
continues
going to plan. Meanwhile, I noticed that the matter of future sales and products arose in another thread, with the intention being expressed that others will be producing and selling boards in future.
More that as the certification mark holder i cannot sell at all to anyone period and so that automatucally means someone else has to.
I can barely get away with treating people here as engineering assistants or something like that.
Now, there may have been some confusion in that other thread because I
seem to
recall talk of follow-up campaigns (although these may have been related
to
other hardware projects, not computer cards). Indeed, the August 2016
campaign
update about the product roadmap had the following to say:
"We need your backing for this project and the current Computer Card
before we
can be in an established financial position to properly evaluate and
bring you
these faster Computer Cards."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/product-roadmap
The crucial question in the context of the above is therefore the
following:
who exactly is "we"? If not any of the parties behind the current
campaign,
who might it be? Here, I can understand some confusion or a mismatch in expectations.
We as in all of us who want this project to succeed. However also i am taking a liberty and indirectly speaking on behalf of thinkpenguin.
But in any case, this discussion of future sales and products reminded me
of a
number of things, the first of which being the board designs:
"The only exception to this rule to release everything in advance is the
PCB
CAD files for the Computer Card. We’re planning to release the PCB CAD
files
for the Computer card once sufficient units are hit that ensures any third party manufacturing runs will not undermine the project’s development or stability."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/crowdfunding
Although "the point about the A20 running out of time" [1] has been made repeatedly since the start of the campaign (this quote being from March
2017
in the context of suitable NAND ICs), might it be envisaged that the
design
files be released for the A20 card to perhaps *stimulate* the project's development and stability after this campaign concludes?
Basically yes however the files will need to come with an agreement that recipients shall respect the Certification Mark which takes absolute precedence over and above the GPL.
Complicated.
Has there been any constructive interest from anyone to produce more
boards
using this design?
A couple of companies approached me, also thinkpenguin have always wanted to stock them.
I see that Olimex have recently introduced a variant of one of their A20-based products using the compatible T2 SoC [2]. So, the A20
still
has an audience and a commercial life, apparently.
25 second to GUI desktop aint bad.
Another thing I found myself considering is the matter of the other cards mentioned during the course of the campaign. If they are not going to be offered via future campaigns, will they be offered by existing partners or collaborators? For instance:
http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/ http://rhombus-tech.net/rock_chips/rk3288/ http://rhombus-tech.net/nexell/s5p6818/
The 6818 is a tough one. The 3288 i still have to get 2 of the 4 drams recognised. Rockchip are under NDA with the DDR initialisation so cannot help. The 4775 i need to replace the 24mhz xtal.
The first two of these had been prototyped, as I recall (and has been documented), and so I imagine that there is some value in seeing them
become
products, subject to economic and technical viability, the latter of which reminding me of the following remarks:
"The rk3288 is not a low-power chip, and the heat sink supplied (pictured above), is not adequate for any CPU-intensive activity, quickly throttling performance when it gets too hot."
Thats why you only run it at a lower clock rate. Duh. :)
Also has contact with metal case.
Will have to see how it goes once up and running.
https://forum.armbian.com/topic/4614-asus-tinker-board/
(The above is just an acknowledgement of the difficulties of selecting products, not an invitation to discuss the details.)
Ok
Finally, I realised that the current campaign began almost two years ago.
I
think the second anniversary of its launch will be on Friday this coming
week.
It would be interesting to hear any reflections on the position of this initiative two years on, whether (and how) the roadmap might change, and
what
still needs to be done to bring this modular computing vision to fruition.
Good idea
Apologies if I missed various updates or announcements that happen to
answer
some of my questions!
No pretty insightful and very helpful as always.
Paul
[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/
complexities-of-
hardware-progress-and-travel
[2] https://olimex.wordpress.com/2018/06/20/a20-olinuxino-lime-
revision-h-is-
now-in-stock-the-oshw-linux-computer-now-support-emmc-and-can-be-produced- with-industrial-grade-temperature-4085c/
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions!
On Monday 16. July 2018 04.38.34 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[Campaign schedule]
Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components now for 1000 cards and 500 mds.
This is good to know! I imagine that the other offerings, principally the laptop, are on hold pending further development, however.
[...]
Meanwhile, I noticed that the matter of future sales and products arose in another thread, with the intention being expressed that others will be producing and selling boards in future.
More that as the certification mark holder i cannot sell at all to anyone period and so that automatucally means someone else has to.
I can barely get away with treating people here as engineering assistants or something like that.
[...]
"We need your backing for this project and the current Computer Card before we can be in an established financial position to properly evaluate and bring you these faster Computer Cards."
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/product-roadmap
[...]
We as in all of us who want this project to succeed. However also i am taking a liberty and indirectly speaking on behalf of thinkpenguin.
I suppose this makes sense. My impression is that since ThinkPenguin is involved, it was a vehicle for them to assess the viability of the exercise for things that they might sell in the future.
So, "we" in the specific context of the campaign seems to mean "you and ThinkPenguin" (as one would expect), even if in the wider context it means a group of other people, too. I only note this because the outcome of the campaign only immediately changes the "financial position" of the broader group in saving them the costs of having to prove the concept themselves.
[...]
Although "the point about the A20 running out of time" [1] has been made repeatedly since the start of the campaign (this quote being from March 2017 in the context of suitable NAND ICs), might it be envisaged that the design files be released for the A20 card to perhaps *stimulate* the project's development and stability after this campaign concludes?
Basically yes however the files will need to come with an agreement that recipients shall respect the Certification Mark which takes absolute precedence over and above the GPL.
Complicated.
I think that any approach that keeps the design licensing "clean", whilst upholding the liability protection you need with regard to the "brand", would be acceptable. But I don't profess to be able to tell you what you need to do.
Has there been any constructive interest from anyone to produce more boards using this design?
A couple of companies approached me, also thinkpenguin have always wanted to stock them.
OK. This is very reassuring. From what you have said above and earlier, these companies will have to take control of the production and retailing. I guess that ThinkPenguin, as being part of this campaign, are in a position to do just that without any awkward contractual complications.
[...]
Another thing I found myself considering is the matter of the other cards mentioned during the course of the campaign. If they are not going to be offered via future campaigns, will they be offered by existing partners or collaborators? For instance:
http://rhombus-tech.net/ingenic/jz4775/ http://rhombus-tech.net/rock_chips/rk3288/ http://rhombus-tech.net/nexell/s5p6818/
The 6818 is a tough one. The 3288 i still have to get 2 of the 4 drams recognised. Rockchip are under NDA with the DDR initialisation so cannot help. The 4775 i need to replace the 24mhz xtal.
I don't want to speculate unnecessarily here, but I suppose that those interested parties mentioned above must have a route to acquiring the rights to produce boards based on these other designs.
Indeed, I think this is the core of the confusion: you apparently cannot routinely make and sell the cards while at the same time being the custodian of the certification mark. So, people like me might wonder what all these boards are good for.
But it seems that you might be in a position to produce designs that others can make and sell, albeit doing so in a distinct role from that of custodian. Obviously, others might make their own designs eventually, but a selection of initial designs that others might be able to acquire helps to prove the concept.
I hope that this is a reasonable interpretation of the situation. Apologies if this has just restated something that was already obvious to most people.
Paul
On Jul 15, 2018, at 20:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
[…] Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components now for 1000 cards and 500 mds.
By "mds" I guess you mean "microdesktops"? This was the gist of my earlier question regarding the status of microdesktops. I was wondering where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout.
On Monday, July 16, 2018, Richard Wilbur richard.wilbur@gmail.com wrote:
On Jul 15, 2018, at 20:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net
wrote:
[…] Yes. Mike is being extra cautious, hes ordered the full set of components now for 1000 cards and 500 mds.
By "mds" I guess you mean "microdesktops"? This was the gist of my earlier question regarding the status of microdesktops. I was wondering where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout.
I know. It should have been 8 to 10 months ago. Cant delay now. Do after. Just how it is. Document, plan carefully. Nextv batch 1.8
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On Jul 18, 2018, at 07:15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Monday, July 16, 2018, Richard Wilbur richard.wilbur@gmail.com wrote:
[…]
I was wondering where we were in regard to ordering parts, fabricating circuit boards, etc. for the microdesktop as I saw issues which could be addressed by creating a v1.8 schematic, BOM, and layout.
I know. It should have been 8 to 10 months ago. Cant delay now. Do after. Just how it is. Document, plan carefully. Nextv batch 1.8
Sounds great! I'll document things on the wiki and look forward to the shipping date for v1.7!
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
-
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Paul Boddie -
Richard Wilbur