Hello,
First, congrats on the campaign success !
I tried searching the ML archives & rhombus site, but couldn't find it.
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the Keyboard: Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.
Or can a backlit one be substitued easily? I.e. No other HW redesign...
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.
That would make the laptop better suited to night use.
Wdyt?
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Vincent Legoll vincent.legoll@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
First, congrats on the campaign success !
thxman.
I tried searching the ML archives & rhombus site, but couldn't find it.
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the Keyboard: Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.
and associated variants, yes. see http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/pcbs/pcb2/
Or can a backlit one be substitued easily? I.e. No other HW redesign...
substituted yes... easily... well... a replacement keyboard has (physically touches) the following surrounding parts:
* back runner (left and right) * left edge, right edge * middle strut (underneath) * touchpanel tray * PCB1 support (left side) * Battery support (right side) * left front kbd support (for compartment) * right front kbd support
now, given that work on each of these, to fit a new keyboard, would take about 2-3 days of CAD work, 3-4 days of re-printing followed by iterative redesign *EACH PART*, a simple-sounding "can we replace the keyboard with something different" stacks up to a staggering 7-9 weeks just on 3D CAD work.
then PCB2 also needs to be redone, not just in terms of connector sourcing but also component placement and connector placement. after doing a feasibility study of approximately 2 weeks and sourcing the parts (another 2-3 weeks) this takes an estimated 1 week for the design plus another 4-6 weeks for the PCB to be manufactured and components source, purchased and assembled.
however before you get to that, you have to bear in mind that the connector placement may have a cascade knock-on effect on the PCB shape as well as the CAD design to *fit* the new PCB shape, now you're looking at an extra 2-4 weeks of iterative 3D work.
then also the keyboard's matrix has to be reverse-engineered because it's extremely unlikely that the manufacturers will tell you how it works. that requires disassembly of they keyboard, tracing its tracks and documenting them: this takes another 2-3 days.
then you need to reprogram the firmware. with the current firmware already in place that would take maybe a couple of days.
so.
simple-sounding question "can a new keyboard be fitted"... answer is: it's about 4 months of full-time work.
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.
that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work, redesigning casework, that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and verification.
That would make the laptop better suited to night use.
Wdyt?
*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)
l.
'ey Luke, I've reverse-engineered a keyboard before in about half an afternoon. It was a dead one, mind you (my mother had emptied a cup of orange Crystal Lite into it!) but I got a fair idea from it.
The method you're looking for is not following traces, but rather using a multimeter set to continuity (or diode test) and hook-probes (google if unfamiliar). Two sheets of contacts, so two connectors, you know?
So, you hook one hook-probe to the first pin on the bottom-side connector, and the other probe to the first pin on the top-side, and you find what key connects them. Move the top-side hook-probe over one pin and do the same thing. Once you've gotten all the top-side pins, move the bottom-side over one and start the bottom-side over again at pin one.
If you get bored easily (or zone out quickly) -- Pandora and a decent pair of PC speakers really helps ;) Logitech makes okay ones for this that are pretty cheap (audiophiles will beg to differ).
Hi all,
Le Sat, 27 Aug 2016 17:12:08 +0100 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net a écrit:
then also the keyboard's matrix has to be reverse-engineered because it's extremely unlikely that the manufacturers will tell you how it works. that requires disassembly of they keyboard, tracing its tracks and documenting them: this takes another 2-3 days.
This could be achieved without taking the keyboard apart, assuming it can be connected to the GPIOs of the EC or a NUCLEO with some ad hoc scanning program (I actually considered such a scanning loop when I started working on the AZERTY keyboard, but did not need it eventually).
*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)
Yep, that would work too. :)
Amicalement,
Hi,
I don't know why, but I was kind of expecting this kind of answer ;-)
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.
and associated variants, yes.
In fact the question I had in mind was more:
If there are such associated variants that can be (almost) drop-in replacement, but with backlighting...
Because I naively expected the producers to reuse their designs when adding such slight variations...
So the answer is no... Too bad
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.
that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work, redesigning casework
Ouch, I was thinking of just one or two small holes in the casing, and friction slip the LEDs inside... I would not have expected this to take significant work. It could even be done by careful drilling, without redesign.
that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and verification.
Here I show my almost complete lack of electronics-fu, I thought LEDs were so low power that they could get piggybacked to the display power line with just a 1K resistor added, and maybe a switch, to avoid needing to route a GPIO there just for that.
*deep breath*.... get a small $2 torch from walmart :)
That's where I'm coming from, and where I expected not to stay... :-)
Especially as this is absolutely not eco-conscious, the one I got lost leds after just a few weeks of light use, and now is getting useless. Maybe that was bad luck, but I'm not holding my breath with a new one...
But thanks for the very detailed answer.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Vincent Legoll vincent.legoll@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I don't know why, but I was kind of expecting this kind of answer ;-)
:)
Is the laptop's keyboard only option the Chicony P/N MP-03756GB-5287.
and associated variants, yes.
In fact the question I had in mind was more:
If there are such associated variants that can be (almost) drop-in replacement, but with backlighting...
you need *exact* drop-in replacement, not "almost" - tolerances are... what... 0.3mm so the keyboard doesn't fall out? and the connector really does have to be exact.
Because I naively expected the producers to reuse their designs when adding such slight variations...
So the answer is no... Too bad
pretty mad, huh?
Or maybe the laptop case can be modified to allow placement of a few leds around the screen that would get light on the keyboard. I had this on an old T42p and it was better than nothing.
that would be much simpler - it's still abouuut... 2-3 weeks of work, redesigning casework
Ouch, I was thinking of just one or two small holes in the casing, and friction slip the LEDs inside... I would not have expected this to take significant work. It could even be done by careful drilling, without redesign.
it's best if you either run the 3D CAD stuff (see the youmagine page), 3d-print a set out, then you'll have a clear idea. you don't really need to drill it (ok you could for a 1st revision).
that's assuming no LED circuits are needed and there's a convenient place to draw power off of. if it was under PWM control of something (to change brightness) that's.. 3-5 weeks of PCB design work and PCB assembly, 1-2 weeks of component sourcing and verification.
Here I show my almost complete lack of electronics-fu, I thought LEDs were so low power that they could get piggybacked to the display power line with just a 1K resistor added, and maybe a switch, to avoid needing to route a GPIO there just for that.
the backlight's at 17v (appx) - LEDs are current-controlled not voltage-controlled, they're not negligeable current, and you really don't want to be overloading the power chip.
l.
@Vincent.
If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe -- it's either got a remarkably insufficient resistor, or (far more likely) it was a Dollar Tree Special that doesn't have that protective component at all (I got bit there once myself). The light in my pocket came with a Rayovac AA for ~$5, and has served me well for a year or two now.
It's not my all-time favorite (that would be the Brinkmann one that I had until it died... a replacement is $20, to which I say, "I don't think so, Tim!") but it's very nice. It's this one here http://www.ebay.com/itm/331836187844. I'd buy that, even though it's $3 more than I paid at *cringe* Wal*Mart. (For the record, mine is a sort of bronze-ish color, almost a dark gold... not silver like that one.)
@ Luke. 20mA @ 2-3.5v, depending on the LED in question and its color. eBay-issue cool white LEDs are 3.4v... I have a bag of 50 warm white ones that are otherwise identical... I'd be inclined to call 40mA at 3.4v (quick mental estimation pots that at ~1/8w) fairly trivial for an average vreg, but i'm just a hobbyist -- I'll defer to you on this one, since you're the resident expert.
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe
Sorry, but I won't use a flashlight to ease my typing in the dark :-) I need my 2 hands to type...
I used a headlamp once, but it was not very comfortable.
The one I spoke of was an USB LED Stick Light, just like those:
https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Zero-14101-Stick-Light/dp/B0045XRK06/ref=sr_1_6/...
4 dead LEDs out of ten...
Yah, that's crap. Probably dependent on the USB spec to provide current limiting... ugh.
I'd not have bought that.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Vincent Legoll vincent.legoll@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
If your flashlight died out after a few weeks in the way you describe
Sorry, but I won't use a flashlight to ease my typing in the dark :-) I need my 2 hands to type...
I used a headlamp once, but it was not very comfortable.
The one I spoke of was an USB LED Stick Light, just like those:
https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Zero-14101-Stick-Light/dp/B0045XRK06/ref=sr_1_6/...
4 dead LEDs out of ten...
nnniiiice... ok are there better ones with a metal bendable flex?
l.
@ Luke -- not very nice at all. Those are Dollar Tree grade, I can see it from here. Probably they're all the same -- most eBay crap is.
@ Luke -- just sent you something off-list because it's ~300% irrelevant to EOMA-68. When you have a split second or two, could you poke your Gmail, please...?
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
@ Luke -- not very nice at all. Those are Dollar Tree grade, I can see it from here. Probably they're all the same -- most eBay crap is.
some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.
good point. there's room for it, too - there's an extra slot for wires. hmmm might have to run the cable across the back of the screen..
... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any electronics... yeah doable.
l. --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
On 27/08/16 20:48, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any electronics... yeah doable.
what about the backlight switch so when the lid is closed its off, could that be piggy backed/tapped into?
backlight switch? what backlight switch! hmmm... i think i forgot to do one of those... oops!
l.
I made a quick list of things an average user is used to have on a laptop, that aren't on the eoma68 laptop housing. Maybe we could later add it to the user wiki, along with ways to replace them with software when it's possible ? (for example how the disks IO LED can be shown on screen, along with the caps lock and num lock status,...)
- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has been completely shutdown or not) - Battery status: charging/discharging/low power - Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to - Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF - Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do have a led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the internal USB)
By the way I have kind of a dumb question and I guess it has already been answered, but I did not find the answer on the mailing list: is there a power button or a switch on the laptop housing and if not, how do you power it on/off ? does it boot up by inserting the computer card into the housing ?
2016-08-27 22:01 GMT+02:00 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
On 27/08/16 20:48, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
... manual switch.... run it direct off the battery instead of any electronics... yeah doable.
what about the backlight switch so when the lid is closed its off, could that be piggy backed/tapped into?
backlight switch? what backlight switch! hmmm... i think i forgot to do one of those... oops!
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Hi Raphël,
Le Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:59:39 +0200 Raphaël Mélotte raphael.melotte@gmail.com a écrit:
I made a quick list of things an average user is used to have on a laptop, that aren't on the eoma68 laptop housing. Maybe we could later add it to the user wiki, along with ways to replace them with software when it's possible ? (for example how the disks IO LED can be shown on screen, along with the caps lock and num lock status,...)
- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has
been completely shutdown or not)
- Battery status: charging/discharging/low power
- Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to
- Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF
- Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do
have a led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the internal USB)
All this can be realized some way or other through the touchpad which is actually a TS+LCD. At least for those features for which the main CPU is on, there is no problem: Wireless, BT, key lock status can be shown there. Complex displays will be a bit trickier with the A20 off and only the STM32 powered, but we can still manage some simple display of e.g. the battery charging status.
Amicalement,
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Albert ARIBAUD albert.aribaud@free.fr wrote:
- Main power status: ON/OFF/suspended (to know whether the card has
been completely shutdown or not)
- Battery status: charging/discharging/low power
- Disk IO LED: blinking when the disk/sd card is being read/written to
- Num lock, caps lock and scroll lock status LEDs: ON/OFF
- Wireless and/or bluetooth status LED: ON/OFF (some USB adapters do
have a led but they won't be visible if they are plugged in the internal USB)
All this can be realized some way or other through the touchpad which is actually a TS+LCD. At least for those features for which the main CPU is on, there is no problem: Wireless, BT, key lock status can be shown there. Complex displays will be a bit trickier with the A20 off and only the STM32 powered, but we can still manage some simple display of e.g. the battery charging status.
yep. it's all going to have to be managed through the STM32F072. the plan is to use /dev/ttyACM0 endpoint (or similar) and a simple serial protocol communicating between EOMA68 1st USB port and the STM32F072.
l.
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.
Yep, that's the one (thinkpad T42p) it was located just next to the webcam, over the display, angled towards the keyboard, with a slight overhang from the case, so that the led was not directly visible. It was switchable with a key Fn combo. Just ON/OFF, no real need for light levels.
Real nice idea, before backlit keyboards...
I'll take some closeup pics when I get back where it is stored.
I'd do a dual one, with LEDs far apart, to avoid making hand shadows.
On 27.08.2016 23:09, Vincent Legoll wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
some thinkpads at one point had a led light that pointed down and lite up the keyboard without shining in the users eyes i think. it was in the top bezel of the screen. maybe that would be a simpler mod.
Yep, that's the one (thinkpad T42p) it was located just next to the webcam, over the display, angled towards the keyboard, with a slight overhang from the case, so that the led was not directly visible. It was switchable with a key Fn combo. Just ON/OFF, no real need for light levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_ThinkLight
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkLight
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/keyboard-illumination-thinklight-or-backlight
https://web.archive.org/web/20130307081645/http://blog.lenovo.com/design/she...
One of the key (ba-da-ching) ergonomic features of the Thinklight is that the keyboard combo to switch them on or off is always bottom-left key + top-right key. That way, you don't need to be able to see the keys in order to switch the light on: you can still be sure, just by touch, of being able to activate the correct ones. At the times when I've used Thinkpads, I've appreciated this.
I don't know if any aspect of the Thinklight concept or its implementation is patented or covered by design rights, etc. I would hope not - it's just a light with a switch! - but "Method of swinging on a swing", and all that...
Hello,
On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 10:23 PM, sampablokuper@posteo.net wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_ThinkLight
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkLight
http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/keyboard-illumination-thinklight-or-backlight
https://web.archive.org/web/20130307081645/http://blog.lenovo.com/design/she...
Thanks for the links, they are useful
I don't know if any aspect of the Thinklight concept or its implementation is patented or covered by design rights, etc. I would hope not - it's just a light with a switch! - but "Method of swinging on a swing", and all that...
Looks like HP & DELL also have that feature, so hopefully it is not patented.
In fact I've never used a backlit keyboard so I cannot compare the 2 solutions, but the LED was very effective for such a simple thing.
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
-
Albert ARIBAUD -
Alexander .S.T. Ross -
Christopher Havel -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Raphaël Mélotte -
sampablokuper＠posteo.net -
Vincent Legoll