I heard you considering only sending 1gb of ram instead of 2gb of ram. I just wanted to ask, if it comes down to it, if you would be willing to still send 2gb of ram and have uboot preloaded even if it costs a little extra... for those of us who really need the 2gb of ram. 4gb would be nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't use virtualization for any reason. :)
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm processor... This makes me think that I really will want what your selling more than I have before. but yeah, this christmas which is a long way away, I know I have been saying this for a while, but with meltdown I believe I have good reason to say I will purchase one.
PS, this applies mostly if the date of the eoma68-a20 libre laptop doesn't have to be sent later then expected...
heh... :) I am grateful this opportunity even exists.
Oh and for those on the mailing list who don't know this, A20 is apparently immune to meltdown and spectre. Because it is part of armv7. So yeah, that really motivates me!
I still hope for better though in the future... Shakti anyone? ;)
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 5:35 PM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
I heard you considering only sending 1gb of ram instead of 2gb of ram. I just wanted to ask, if it comes down to it, if you would be willing to still send 2gb of ram and have uboot preloaded even if it costs a little extra... for those of us who really need the 2gb of ram.
ok, so anything that goes beyond the available budget is just.... not possible. a mixture of RAM ICs would require an evaluation and a quote on exactly how much it would cost to split - and massively complicate - both the *ordering* of the RAM ICs *and* the production of the PCBs.
so it may turn out that consideration of the proposed idea would be MASSIVELY more expensive even than doing all PCBs @ 2GB of RAM.
a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more money.
4gb would be nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't use virtualization for any reason. :)
4gb physical RAM addressing has never been possible with any Allwinner processor, ever. bit of an oversight on their part.
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm processor...
correct.
heh... :) I am grateful this opportunity even exists.
appreciated
Oh and for those on the mailing list who don't know this, A20 is apparently immune to meltdown and spectre. Because it is part of armv7. So yeah, that really motivates me!
I still hope for better though in the future... Shakti anyone? ;)
:)
ok, so anything that goes beyond the available budget is just.... not possible. a mixture of RAM ICs would require an evaluation and a quote on exactly how much it would cost to split - and massively complicate - both the *ordering* of the RAM ICs *and* the production of the PCBs.
so it may turn out that consideration of the proposed idea would be MASSIVELY more expensive even than doing all PCBs @ 2GB of RAM.
a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more money.
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need to do it for one person. Aka on an invididual basis if need be... request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much you would need......
4gb would be nice too of course, but 2gb is probably good enough as long as you don't use virtualization for any reason. :)
4gb physical RAM addressing has never been possible with any Allwinner processor, ever. bit of an oversight on their part.
I would agree
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm processor...
correct.
I thought so... :)
On 01/27/2018 11:11 AM, zap wrote:
a way to *increase* the budget is therefore the most sensible option to explore and consider. translation: someone needs to find more money.
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need to do it for one person. Aka on an invididual basis if need be... request + money aka..> If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much you would need......
Given that a prototype batch of ten runs $2000 USD, I'd guess this is a floor for the increased cost without considering the component cost. Given the age of the processor and related components, this may be a high bar to reach.
If there is interest, however, is it possible to use Crowd Supply or another crowd funding site to see if there is adequate interest in helping cover the additional budget required? I'd certainly be interested in the possibility.
It also dawns on me, that meltdown does not affect the a20 arm processor...
correct.
I thought so... :)
I've just been doing some reading. IIUC, Meltdown is specific to Intel for a decade, and maybe a couple of very new/forthcoming processors. Spectre, on the other hand, is much more widespread, but without the Meltdown exploit to leverage a path in, it's very difficult to successfully attack a system.
Tor
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 9:11 PM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need to do it for one person.
oh. ok. well, um... a _lot_. as in, it would be a custom board, done by hand. 10 PCBs tend to cost about $2000 all-in, so $200 would not be unreasonable.
basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below 1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll consider it.
Aka on an invididual basis if need be... request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much you would need......
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture anything else".
l.
Oy, Luke, pardon a bit of an oddball idea -- my specialty, everyone elses' headache, typically -- but if you're desperate enough -- how much would it cost to buy a fat stack of DIMMs with the right chips and hire some bored dude with a hot air machine or reballing station and the skill to use it, to extract what you need and recycle the rest...?
I know that's not the, er, usual way of acquiring chips of /any/ kind, but it sounds like we're approaching throw-it-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks territory anyways, so I thought I'd offer that one up, see how much glue it has to it :P
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:35 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
Oy, Luke, pardon a bit of an oddball idea -- my specialty, everyone elses' headache, typically -- but if you're desperate enough -- how much would it cost to buy a fat stack of DIMMs with the right chips and hire some bored dude with a hot air machine or reballing station and the skill to use it, to extract what you need and recycle the rest...?
bleugh :) the problem is they need to be re-balled. as in, the solder balls on the underside completely cleaned off, then a new set added. i mean it can be done, but someone has to evaluate the cost of doing it.
l.
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net
wrote:
the problem is they need to be re-balled.
Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) -- but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire, or a lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between friends?
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:45 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
the problem is they need to be re-balled.
Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) -- but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire, or a lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between friends?
the solder balls on BGA and FBGA are specifically calculated to be a size that will spread evenly and create a successful circuit, whilst at the same time being of exactly the right size to support the weight of the IC itself against surface tension and not get so squashed so flat that they cause a short-circuit to the pad next door.
when you REMOVE a BGA or FBGA IC from a circuit, that ball had ALREADY been destroyed and obviously needs to be replaced.
with a ball of the exact same size.
that costs money and time.
l.
Replying by phone, usual constraints. Sorry.
Your reply makes a lot of sense. I understand better now. That's quite an operation...
On Jan 27, 2018 6:15 PM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:45 PM, Christopher Havel laserhawk64@gmail.com wrote:
the problem is they need to be re-balled.
Forgive both naïveté and apparent stupidity (or at least inexperience) -- but why? A conductor conducts, be it a copper trace, an aluminum wire,
or a
lump of solder in between the two. What's a little solder reuse between friends?
the solder balls on BGA and FBGA are specifically calculated to be a size that will spread evenly and create a successful circuit, whilst at the same time being of exactly the right size to support the weight of the IC itself against surface tension and not get so squashed so flat that they cause a short-circuit to the pad next door.
when you REMOVE a BGA or FBGA IC from a circuit, that ball had ALREADY been destroyed and obviously needs to be replaced.
with a ball of the exact same size.
that costs money and time.
l.
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On 01/27/2018 05:28 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 9:11 PM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
Okay, but when I meant paying a little more, I meant what you would need to do it for one person.
oh. ok. well, um... a _lot_. as in, it would be a custom board, done by hand. 10 PCBs tend to cost about $2000 all-in, so $200 would not be unreasonable.
basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below 1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll consider it.
Hmm... I never realized it was that absurdly high of a price. I would do it don't get me wrong if needed, but yeah...
Aka on an invididual basis if need be... request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much you would need......
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture anything else".
Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...
I am just wondering because 1gb of ram would be how much you would have if you didn't do this. Right? Well how much would that cost you?
Don't get me wrong, I will pay 200$ extra if need be, but yeah... I am just curious.
Also, will the ram problem exist whenever shakti processors come out?
l.
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On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 12:59 AM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
basically until you get to QTY 500 or above the setup and teardown costs are so high that companies are reluctant to do anything below 1,000 units. i'm lucky that mike's factory is small enough that he'll consider it.
Hmm... I never realized it was that absurdly high of a price. I would do it don't get me wrong if needed, but yeah...
it's down to the small quantities.
Aka on an invididual basis if need be... request + money aka...
If more money can be found however, everyone. Though I dunno how much you would need......
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture anything else".
Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...
yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people. if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.
that means ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 2gb, and ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 1gb.
that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use, because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.
that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM
also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
I am just wondering because 1gb of ram would be how much you would have if you didn't do this. Right? Well how much would that cost you?
Don't get me wrong, I will pay 200$ extra if need be, but yeah... I am just curious.
Also, will the ram problem exist whenever shakti processors come out?
that's about 18-24 months out so we have no way of telling.
i was planning to use smartphone-style LPDDR3 x32 RAM ICs. i have a design of a PCB layout i was just going to *cough* copy the pin mapping and *cough* oh look! by a happy coincidence if i pull that SoC out and replace it with a Shakti one it fits perfectly and doesn't need the PCB layout changing *at all*! wow, isn't that an amazing happy coincidence?
... mind you i have to check that it's not a 650-pin monster. i wanted to keep the shakti m-class processor down to below 450 pins. heck i *might* be able to get away with adjusting the tracks a *little* bit (shorter, longer) but DDR3 layout is such a pain it's worth going to some lengths to avoid redoing layouts.
l.
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture anything else".
Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...
yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people. if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.
that means ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 2gb, and ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 1gb.
that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use, because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.
that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM
also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
This sounds very difficult, Well, you would also have to find out how many people want 2gb of ram with a poll or something. Pity not everyone wants 2gb of ram that badly... ;/
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:12 AM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
i really don't know. RAM prices are so mad that suppliers are actually reluctant to find out, because (a) they actually CAN'T get hold of them - as in there AREN'T ANY AVAIALBLE or (b) those that are available are in such demand that they don't want to commit unless you're actually serious and have cash RIGHT now.
when i say "there aren't any available" i mean, "demand for apple products has gone so insane that the RAM foundries are so overwhelmed with APPLE's RAM orders that they haven't got TIME to manufacture anything else".
Hmm... Interesting. That is insane. so basically for 2gb of ram it adds 200$ to the price tag or 100$...
yeah. that's if there's only 10 people. but there are 900 people. if half of them are prepared to pay extra, that's fine... but it means i now have to get quotes for 450 with 1gb and 450 with 2gb.
that means ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 2gb, and ONLY an order of 2000 RAM ICs @ 1gb.
that in turn means that i can't use the supplier i was going to use, because he has a MOQ of 5000 units.
that in turn pushes the prices up for BOTH SETS OF RAM
also the split production will also be much more expensive per unit because now there will be TWO SETS OF SETUP AND TEARDOWN COSTS....
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
This sounds very difficult,
i don't mind the "difficult" part: what i mind is that the total cost could well be in excess even of doing 2GB RAM for all boards.
Well, you would also have to find out how many people want 2gb of ram with a poll or something.
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying attention. at all.
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in any meaningful way.
Pity not everyone wants 2gb of ram that badly... ;/
meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is possible.
l.
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying attention. at all.
Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest.
Sorry all the same man.
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in any meaningful way.
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after all right? and know who knows if they would after that anyways.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.
I never thought I would say this, but screw apple more than even microsoft.
ugh... sorry did I say microsoft? I mad malwaresoft and as for apple I meant crapple...
If it will help, I will try to at some point send more cash your way.
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On 01/27/2018 10:40 PM, zap wrote:
lkcl wrote:
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying attention. at all.
Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest.
Unfortunately, if there is more than one topic in an email, post, etc., many people seem incapable of noticing it. Even when it seems they are being paid to read the thing. I don't know of a good solution there.
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in any meaningful way.
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after all right? and know who knows if they would after that anyways.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.
IIUC, the current state of affairs is that: 1. The design costs have run high due to issues found in the prototype that was supposedly working after being designed by a competent designer. 2. The time required has similarly run high for the same reason. 3. In that time prices on key components have risen, as much because of a fluke of timing as because of valid price changes. 4. Given current prices, the only known way to make everything work with available resources is to put in lower capacity RAM ICs.
While even a dedicated update to backers might get ignored, and it's not ideal in the first place, we obviously have some people prepared to pay significantly more than the price increase to get the 2GB RAM.
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much people care about the difference in RAM?
Tor
- -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur Marqueteur@fineartmarquetry.com wrote:
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On 01/27/2018 10:40 PM, zap wrote:
lkcl wrote:
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying attention. at all.
Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest.
Unfortunately, if there is more than one topic in an email, post, etc., many people seem incapable of noticing it. Even when it seems they are being paid to read the thing. I don't know of a good solution there.
it's ok: right now the project is not targetted 100% at busy average-use-case people.
so, sad as it is to have to point it out, i really do not have *any* confidence that people will actually bother to engage with a poll in any meaningful way.
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after all right? and know who knows if they would after that anyways.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding, I just need 2gb of ram at the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.
IIUC, the current state of affairs is that:
- The design costs have run high due to issues found in the prototype
that was supposedly working after being designed by a competent designer.
ok clarification:
* 5 years ago the first version we paid USD 10,000 for them to fail to fucking well listen. i said the OUTER dimensions were 54 x 96, sent them the datasheet with the part from china and expected them to read it and communicate with me about the internal PCB dimensions needed to fit into the casework. luckily, when the PCB turned up and was 54x96 mm in size, there were critical flaws which indicated that the JUNIOR pcb engineer given the task had completely fucking well failed to even run the Design Validation Checks.
* 4.5 years ago the second version was handed over to a COMPETENT engineer... we were ONLY charged USD 5,000 for this service. i decided that from this point onwards i would do the PCB layout myself.
* 4 years ago the HDMI connector utilised on this second revision went END OF LIFE.
* 2 years ago the REPLACEMENT HDMI connector went END OF LIFE
* 1 year ago yet *ANOTHER* replacement HDMI connector turned out not to be available in reasonable quantities at reasonable prices.
* 6 months ago the pressure on legacy TSSOP48 NAND (the A20 having a BOOT ROM that only reads older NAND block sizes / speeds) became too great and i went "fuck it, it's gone".
*NONE OF THESE THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED*. you cannot know what you do not know that you do not know.
- The time required has similarly run high for the same reason.
naturally.
- In that time prices on key components have risen, as much because
of a fluke of timing as because of valid price changes.
this is the latest development, yes.
- Given current prices, the only known way to make everything work
with available resources is to put in lower capacity RAM ICs.
we don't know that yet. it is *suspected* that that is the case.
While even a dedicated update to backers might get ignored, and it's not ideal in the first place, we obviously have some people prepared to pay significantly more than the price increase to get the 2GB RAM.
.... and be prepared to cover the *INCREASED* cost due to reduced quantities but not a reduction in the fixed overheads associated with component sourcing, supply, and PCB production *and* PCB assembly... yes.
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much people care about the difference in RAM?
it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility for it. i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling this stuff on my own.
l.
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much people care about the difference in RAM?
it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility for it. i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling this stuff on my own.
Yes, understandable. Would chris from thinkpenguin have time not to be arrogant or anything, if he has no time or has done enough already, then maybe someone else? I don't know...? Hopefully someone trustworthy.
l.
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On 01/28/2018 06:49 AM, zap wrote:
lkcl wrote:
Tor wrote:
Should a crowdfunding, all or nothing, be considered to gauge how much people care about the difference in RAM?
it could... if someone else is prepared to take responsibility for it. i'll be absolutely honest: i'm getting tired of handling this stuff on my own.
Yes, understandable. Would chris from thinkpenguin have time not to be arrogant or anything, if he has no time or has done enough already, then maybe someone else? I don't know...? Hopefully someone trustworthy.
I suspect this means "someone following the list". Sorry, but that won't be me. I'll contribute, I've got way too much online promotion that I should be doing but aren't because I don't like doing that in the first place.
For now, it sounds like it's a case of waiting to see where things are after the latest prototypes come in.
FWIW, I agree with what Adam said. Get this one out and delivered with what can be managed so it can be seen in the real world. Then stop putting effort into these near-EOL components and get to the next, better card.
Thank you for all the effort you've poured into this project, Luke.
Tor
- -- Tor Chantara http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/ GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB *Be wary of unsigned emails* Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/
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On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 2:01 AM, Tor, the Marqueteur Marqueteur@fineartmarquetry.com wrote:
I suspect this means "someone following the list". Sorry, but that won't be me. I'll contribute, I've got way too much online promotion that I should be doing but aren't because I don't like doing that in the first place.
not a problem.
For now, it sounds like it's a case of waiting to see where things are after the latest prototypes come in.
yes.
FWIW, I agree with what Adam said. Get this one out and delivered with what can be managed so it can be seen in the real world.
yehyeh
Then stop putting effort into these near-EOL components and get to the next, better card.
ngggh
Thank you for all the effort you've poured into this project, Luke.
appreciated tor - and everyone else who's been so encouraging.
l.
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 8:40 AM, zap calmstorm@posteo.de wrote:
Hmm... I have read most of them. Although I may have skimmed through a few. Mostly because they had to do with hdmi which is not my main interest.
you're one of the small percentage that does.
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after all right?
a phpbb style forum would be an unmitigated disaster for this project, as it would be an indicative sign to average end-users that "everything is perfectly ready, everything will work 100% the moment you get it" which is most definitely NOT the case.
I am sorry if I came across as demanding,
not at all.
I just need 2gb of ram at the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.
well, if you're prepared to do help out in a way that benefits more than one person i can make sure you get one of the last remaining 2.7.4 Cards or one of the 2.7.5 pre-production prototypes when they're available.
I never thought I would say this, but screw apple more than even microsoft.
it's not apple per se: if people world-wide weren't sleep-walking their oblivious way into giving apple money hand-over-fist....
l.
Hm, you may have a point. Its not like you have a forum anyways after all right?
a phpbb style forum would be an unmitigated disaster for this project, as it would be an indicative sign to average end-users that "everything is perfectly ready, everything will work 100% the moment you get it" which is most definitely NOT the case.
I don't always think through what I say I guess... :(
I am sorry if I came across as demanding,
not at all.
I just need 2gb of ram at the least for it to be usable on a regular basis for myself.
well, if you're prepared to do help out in a way that benefits more than one person i can make sure you get one of the last remaining 2.7.4 Cards or one of the 2.7.5 pre-production prototypes when they're available.
What does this involve though? Just curious... Am I like beta testing or... ? Idk... just curious. Don't get me wrong, I would like to help, of course I would need a monitor and keyboard to use it. Right? heh...
I also would need to visit home before I could do any testing. Because that's where I have my monitor and keyboard... ;)
Feburary I may be able to do such a thing. Would that work for you? But yeah, tell me what this entails.
On 2018-01-28 03:40, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
... which wouldn't cost that much. my main concern would actually be: we have quite a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that most people don't f*****g well read the f*****g updates. witness the last set of complaints - RIGHT HERE - where people said, "but but you didn't say anything about that!!!" and i pointed them DIRECTLY at MULTIPLE updates which specifically, specifically demonstrated that they had simply not been paying attention. at all.
Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2 GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)
meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is possible.
2 GB would have been nice, but as someone who has pre-ordered the card I agree it's more important to deliver. And I've always regarded this project as a first step towards fully open hardware.
Regards, Samuel
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Samuel Lidén Borell samuel@kodafritt.se wrote:
Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2 GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)
because we don't know yet - for absolute certain - that it's not available. plus, in the next batch, there will no longer be the pre-production costs, it will be a straight matter of "placing another order with the factory".
meh... *sigh*. i just have to deliver something as best as is possible.
2 GB would have been nice, but as someone who has pre-ordered the card I agree it's more important to deliver. And I've always regarded this project as a first step towards fully open hardware.
appreciated samuel.
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 12:55:33PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Samuel Lidén Borell samuel@kodafritt.se wrote:
Is there a reason why the crowdsupply project front page still says 2 GB? I think it would reduce the risk of misunderstandings if the RAM size reduction was mentioned clearly on that page :)
because we don't know yet - for absolute certain - that it's not available. plus, in the next batch, there will no longer be the pre-production costs, it will be a straight matter of "placing another order with the factory".
Fair point. Let us hope for the best. By the way the above discussion reminded me that the crowdsupply page still talks of "8GB NAND flash" which is no longer used.
kind regards Pablo
While 2gb ram would be great, I am wiling to accept compromise. With hope/thinking that i guess finishing first card, means next-gen cpu card could get more focus after the first one is out :D (pending sponsoring i assume). Look forward to lots of ram for that one instead heh :)
On January 28, 2018 10:36:45 AM EST, Alexander Ross maillist_arm-netbook@aross.me wrote:
While 2gb ram would be great, I am wiling to accept compromise. With hope/thinking that i guess finishing first card, means next-gen cpu card could get more focus after the first one is out :D (pending sponsoring i assume). Look forward to lots of ram for that one instead heh :)
I think getting to the next gen card is really important. The specifics of this card are really not a big deal in my opinion. It's already a bit outdated, and gets more so with each delay.
But that's fine. The big opportunity here is once this card and associated housings is actually in people's hands, then they can experience the upgrade process with the next card comes out.
That's the whole point of EOMA68 in the first place. To modularize your computing so upgrades are cheaper, easier and less wasteful.
I think people are getting too caught up on how to make the a20 the perfect card, but that misses the big picture. This isn't a one off single board computer, it's a bootstrap of an ecosystem. And rather than try to make the first board perfect, it's more important to just get the first board done and move on to the second and third boards to really get the ecosystem going.
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the 2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
l.
On January 28, 2018 2:22:03 PM EST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the 2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
l.
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Great! You're doing great work Luke, keep it up!
On 01/28/2018 02:28 PM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote:
On January 28, 2018 2:22:03 PM EST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the 2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back again to Taiwan. i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
l.
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Great! You're doing great work Luke, keep it up!
I have the same thoughts, Thank you Luke. Keep it up indeed!
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On Jan 28, 2018, at 12:22, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
folks, gotta do another update, i'm leaving for brussels in 16 hours time. i have about *six* different things / meetings to do from the 2nd-4th, i'm then going to the UK from the 7th to the 20th and back again to Taiwan.
Best wishes with all the travel and meetings.
i'm hand-couriering the remaining 2.7.4 Cards and the Microdesktop Housings there, and will leave them there and get them sent on. adam i'm thinking of you particularly.
Are there enough 2.7.4 cards and microdesktop housings that I could buy one of each to use for test development and software integration/porting?
I know we reworked the HDMI layout and changed the connector. You also changed a lot of the power supply decoupling capacitors. What other differences were there between 2.7.4 and 2.7.5?
Sent from my iPhone On Jan 29, 2018, at 20:35, Richard Wilbur richard.wilbur@gmail.com wrote:
Are there enough 2.7.4 cards and microdesktop housings that I could buy one of each to use for test development and software integration/porting?
So I'd be interested in: Libre Tea Card (v2.7.4), $65 on CrowdSupply (prototypes typically more expensive, please let me know how much) Microdesktop Housing, $55 on CrowdSupply PCMCIA/EOMA68 Breakout Board, $20 on CrowdSupply
USB + HDMI Cable Set for Standalone Operation, $15 on CrowdSupply
Should I (pre-?)order them on CrowdSupply? What arrangements will work (shipping, et cetera)? I realize some of these may not be currently available.
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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Adam Van Ymeren -
Alexander Ross -
Christopher Havel -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Pablo Rath -
Richard Wilbur -
Samuel Lidén Borell -
Tor, the Marqueteur -
zap