ok so a quick status update:
* Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
* i calculated that for the microdesktop i have an ENTIRE MONTH of 3d-printing to do, and a YEAR for the laptop. there's an update going out about this soon but basically i need help. ideas or actual practical help.
* i'm investigating RISC-V *long-term*, i will start a separate thread about this (immediately after writing this) so am reaching out to various people to see who's interested.
l.
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On April 27, 2017 6:50:39 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
- i calculated that for the microdesktop i have an ENTIRE MONTH of
3d-printing to do, and a YEAR for the laptop. there's an update going out about this soon but basically i need help. ideas or actual practical help.
Are there companies that you could hire to do the bulk of the 3d printing? Any idea what the quality and/or cost would be?
Is there any feasibility of producing the laptop parts via injection molding, but preserving the design in a way that end users could still print replacement parts? Seems like this would require a large redesign investment but could save time and money manufacturing.
- i'm investigating RISC-V *long-term*, i will start a separate thread
about this (immediately after writing this) so am reaching out to various people to see who's interested.
l.
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Hi Luke,
How many pcs you have to print/do each? what is your budget? Have you consider to do plastic molds? Have you consider to do molds from aluminum that are lower priced but could stand lower number of shots (like 10k)? Silicon molds? Where you need to produce it?
Regards, Hrvoje
On 27 April 2017 at 13:48, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
On April 27, 2017 6:50:39 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl@lkcl.net> wrote:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
- i calculated that for the microdesktop i have an ENTIRE MONTH of
3d-printing to do, and a YEAR for the laptop. there's an update going out about this soon but basically i need help. ideas or actual practical help.
Are there companies that you could hire to do the bulk of the 3d printing? Any idea what the quality and/or cost would be?
Is there any feasibility of producing the laptop parts via injection molding, but preserving the design in a way that end users could still print replacement parts? Seems like this would require a large redesign investment but could save time and money manufacturing.
- i'm investigating RISC-V *long-term*, i will start a separate thread
about this (immediately after writing this) so am reaching out to various people to see who's interested.
l.
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
How many pcs you have to print/do each?
2000 of the 12x20x24 microdesktop corners
150 of the *THIRTY FIVE* separate parts of the laptop. some are small but at least 10 of them are 230mm long and around 12mm high. their shapes are.. "exotic" and quite challenging to 3D-print.
what is your budget?
about... $5k maybe $10k.
Have you consider to do plastic molds?
yes. not really practical.
Have you consider to do molds from aluminum that are lower priced but could stand lower number of shots (like 10k)? Silicon molds?
the numbers for this initial run just aren't worth it.
Where you need to produce it?
preferably here in S.E. Asia so i can QA the parts, but if there were people i could trust to QA the parts it could be distributed.
l.
For 2000 pcs maybe it make sense, if ti is really small part you can try
for 150 sets and 35 parts each no big chance for molding to make sense. It would be too expensive.
On 27 April 2017 at 14:57, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Luke,
How many pcs you have to print/do each?
2000 of the 12x20x24 microdesktop corners
150 of the *THIRTY FIVE* separate parts of the laptop. some are small but at least 10 of them are 230mm long and around 12mm high. their shapes are.. "exotic" and quite challenging to 3D-print.
what is your budget?
about... $5k maybe $10k.
Have you consider to do plastic molds?
yes. not really practical.
Have you consider to do molds from aluminum that are lower priced but
could
stand lower number of shots (like 10k)? Silicon molds?
the numbers for this initial run just aren't worth it.
Where you need to produce it?
preferably here in S.E. Asia so i can QA the parts, but if there were people i could trust to QA the parts it could be distributed.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
* Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca [170427 13:49]:
On April 27, 2017 6:50:39 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
- i calculated that for the microdesktop i have an ENTIRE MONTH of
3d-printing to do, and a YEAR for the laptop. there's an update going out about this soon but basically i need help. ideas or actual practical help.
Are there companies that you could hire to do the bulk of the 3d printing? Any idea what the quality and/or cost would be?
Is there any feasibility of producing the laptop parts via injection molding, but preserving the design in a way that end users could still print replacement parts? Seems like this would require a large redesign investment but could save time and money manufacturing.
Injection molds are magnitudes more expensive to make, so it would be an even higher barrier of entry.
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also scratch the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount on future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with access to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties as I have been starting getting into this for a rather short while now...
I think decentralisation and printing on demand is the only sensible way to do this unless one of the bigger companies like Shapeways jump aboard, almost likely adding additional costs on top...
my 2 cents...
-- May you be peaceful, may you live in safety, may you be free from suffering, and may you live with ease.
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also scratch the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount on future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with access to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties as I have been starting getting into this for a rather short while now...
well, a 200x200 basic reprap will do the job, with a 0.4mm nozzle and a layer height of between 0.15 and 0.2mm is absolutely fine. it's not hugely difficult. i've just ordered this ($140!!) 3D printer from a taobao seller, it's arriving in a couple of days:
https://world.taobao.com/item/526287577504.htm
now, at $140 i am quite happy to get up to 10 of those (if the first one checks out fine) - it looks *really* sturdy: 20x20 aluminium box-section: my only concern about rigidity being that it uses L-brackets which go *into* the frame rather than triangle-corners which are bolted outside and lock the box-section absolutely solid. but, we'll see what happens.
also it looks like it has a clone of the E3Dv6 hot-end (which is really good), it has trapezoidal z-axis lead screws with proper brass nuts, borosilicate glass plate (to be confirmed).
the one thing i have told the guy (and he's happy to give a RMB 70 discount): i do NOT want the f*****-s***-for-brains RAMPS 1.4 controller. if you're familiar with 3D printing for f***'s sake STAY AWAY from ANYTHING that uses the brain-dead "Polulu" driver "modules". RAMPS, RUMBA, Lerdge, Megatronics - just don't f*****g well do it.
the reason is really really simple: those QFN ICs are designed SPECIFICALLY, as outlined CLEARLY IN THE DATASHEET, for the heat to be dissipated THROUGH THE PCB. there is a ceramic insulator on the TOP OF THE CHIP which ACTIVELY PREVENTS HEAT DISSIPATING THROUGH THE TOP. if you put a heat sink on top of the chip it does... nothing.
now, when the first reprap was created, in order to save time and development cost they bought some PROTOTYPING boards with the stepper drivers pre-mounted, which came with SPECIFIC instructions "under no circumstances use these in production".
so what happens?
well, they (a) burn out (b) overheat (c) stop working for a couple of seconds at a time in the middle of a print...
... you get the general idea.
so anyway i ordered a Melzi 2.0 from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Melzi-board/1757194_500507171.html
and it turns out that on the reprap wiki there's a mod to them which allows for the connection of a BT UART. it would have been handy if those pins had been brought out on a header but hey, what's wrong with a bit of soldering.
if you don't want to do soldering then you can just put the Melzi 2.0 into "auto-load" mode, drop a file in a FAT32 filesystem on a MicroSD card and power it up.
i like the Melzi 2. it's simple, relatively low-cost compared to some of the other options, no-nonsense and straightforward.
l.
On 27 April 2017 at 15:23, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also scratch the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount on future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with access to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties as I have been starting getting into this for a rather short while now...
well, a 200x200 basic reprap will do the job, with a 0.4mm nozzle and a layer height of between 0.15 and 0.2mm is absolutely fine. it's not hugely difficult. i've just ordered this ($140!!) 3D printer from a taobao seller, it's arriving in a couple of days:
https://world.taobao.com/item/526287577504.htm
now, at $140 i am quite happy to get up to 10 of those (if the first one checks out fine) - it looks *really* sturdy: 20x20 aluminium box-section: my only concern about rigidity being that it uses L-brackets which go *into* the frame rather than triangle-corners which are bolted outside and lock the box-section absolutely solid. but, we'll see what happens.
also it looks like it has a clone of the E3Dv6 hot-end (which is really good), it has trapezoidal z-axis lead screws with proper brass nuts, borosilicate glass plate (to be confirmed).
the one thing i have told the guy (and he's happy to give a RMB 70 discount): i do NOT want the f*****-s***-for-brains RAMPS 1.4 controller. if you're familiar with 3D printing for f***'s sake STAY AWAY from ANYTHING that uses the brain-dead "Polulu" driver "modules". RAMPS, RUMBA, Lerdge, Megatronics - just don't f*****g well do it.
the reason is really really simple: those QFN ICs are designed SPECIFICALLY, as outlined CLEARLY IN THE DATASHEET, for the heat to be dissipated THROUGH THE PCB. there is a ceramic insulator on the TOP OF THE CHIP which ACTIVELY PREVENTS HEAT DISSIPATING THROUGH THE TOP. if you put a heat sink on top of the chip it does... nothing.
now, when the first reprap was created, in order to save time and development cost they bought some PROTOTYPING boards with the stepper drivers pre-mounted, which came with SPECIFIC instructions "under no circumstances use these in production".
so what happens?
well, they (a) burn out (b) overheat (c) stop working for a couple of seconds at a time in the middle of a print...
... you get the general idea.
so anyway i ordered a Melzi 2.0 from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Melzi-board/1757194_500507171.html
and it turns out that on the reprap wiki there's a mod to them which allows for the connection of a BT UART. it would have been handy if those pins had been brought out on a header but hey, what's wrong with a bit of soldering.
if you don't want to do soldering then you can just put the Melzi 2.0 into "auto-load" mode, drop a file in a FAT32 filesystem on a MicroSD card and power it up.
i like the Melzi 2. it's simple, relatively low-cost compared to some of the other options, no-nonsense and straightforward.
l.
this 3d printer looks ok, can you update on quality when available?
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
this 3d printer looks ok, can you update on quality when available?
sure. i usually run these at 200mm/s which is a lot of fun - 4x what they're "rated" at.
l.
Hi All,
For what it’s worth, I’d like to thank all of you involved for taking on this important project.
I started subscribing to this list just a few days ago so please forgive me if specific design requirements/parameters have already been decided for the EOMA computer and my comments are not germane. I’m also not across which manufacturing skills, tools, and facilities are available within or to the group.
With the above said, the best option to my mind would be to 3D print and finish high-quality moulds (in titanium or steel) for use in stamping out aluminium case components from sheet metal. I see modular design to be important primarily for the internal component selection and layout inside the laptop body rather than for the body itself, which—to my mind—should be designed for longevity, strength, rigidity, and good looks (important for attracting more people to buy the product over time).
Lost-wax metal casting has also been effectively demonstrated with 3D-printed thermoplastic plastics but to me that seems like it might be a less environmentally friendly option (as compared to the above) despite possible reuse of the lost wax (the plastic). However, it might be cheaper and a more-viable option for such small manufacturing runs.
However, if the decision is made to go with plastic, and assuming a redesign is a possibility, one option would be to 3D-print the injection mould in metal (such as titanium) using a specialist 3D-printing service. The mould could then be used in a standard injection-mould machine.
With regard to the choice of material, I would suggest the following order of preference: 1) aluminium (recycled if possible), 2) titanium, 3) sustainably grown biological material, 4) plastic. Aluminium and titanium are highly recyclable (aluminium almost infinitely so http://recycling.world-aluminium.org/review/sustainability.html) while (non-biodegradable) recycled plastic almost always requires additional plastic feedstocks—resulting in perpetual growth of plastic waste.
It can be tricky getting truely environmentally friendly biological materials (such as bamboo) from non-western countries. The reason is that the demand for the materials often leads to deforestation of native forests in order to grow the bamboo, palm trees, etc. Sourcing materials (such as sustainably grown hemp, flax, or timber) from the few countries that have strong regulatory schemes would be ideal but typically comes with commensurately higher costs. Also, biological materials are not likely to be well suited to the material specifications needed for a laptop chassis. Note, too, that engineered products (like bamboo floorboards) often incorporate a large percentage of some pretty nasty glues.
My proposed ordered list above discounts the carbon-intensity of materials manufacturing, as well as the damage caused from the mining process, but working out such things is extremely complex and requires detailed audits of source material, material suppliers, and processing manufacturers. It also changes from country to country and from region to region within certain countries. For this project, I think it would be necessary to look at long-term material use and reuse. Aluminium, although requiring lots of (possibly dirty) energy to produce, is also an exceptional store of energy due to its capacity for perpetual recycling. It should also meet the fit, finish, and strength attributes required for the laptop housing.
Some possibly useful resources:
Professional 3D printing companies:
http://www.shapeways.com http://www.shapeways.com/ http://i.materialise.com http://i.materialise.com/
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/ https://www.sculpteo.com/en/
http://3dprinterhub.com/3d-printer-services/ http://3dprinterhub.com/3d-printer-services/ (Comparison service for Shapeways, imaterialise, and Sculpteo)
https://voodoomfg.com/ https://voodoomfg.com/ (Volume 3D-printing an option.)
http://www.shapeways.com/http://www.ponoko.com/3d-printing https://www.ponoko.com/3d-printing (Volume 3D-printing and laser cutting an option. Laser cutting and metal forming of aluminium (or Al alloy) sheet metal might allow for the rapid creation of cheap modular chassis components.
https://www.quora.com/Who-are-Shapeways-competitors https://www.quora.com/Who-are-Shapeways-competitors (A discussion of Shapeways and some of its competitors.)
Cheers,
Bluey
P.S. Without getting into the complicated world of finite element analysis and minimising points of high strain in the design, I would recommend well-rounded internal edges wherever possible if/when designing a chassis case. This will reduce high stress concentration in those areas. The sharper an edge or corner (e.g., on a rectangular hole) the higher the stress concentration in the material will be at that location.
On 28 Apr 2017, at 12:23 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
this 3d printer looks ok, can you update on quality when available?
sure. i usually run these at 200mm/s which is a lot of fun - 4x what they're "rated" at.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
On 4/27/17, Bluey bluey@smallfootprint.info wrote:
Hi All,
For what it’s worth, I’d like to thank all of you involved for taking on this important project.
I started subscribing to this list just a few days ago so please forgive me if specific design requirements/parameters have already been decided for the EOMA computer and my comments are not germane. I’m also not across which manufacturing skills, tools, and facilities are available within or to the group.
With the above said, the best option to my mind would be to 3D print and finish high-quality moulds (in titanium or steel) for use in stamping out aluminium case components from sheet metal. I see modular design to be important primarily for the internal component selection and layout inside the laptop body rather than for the body itself, which—to my mind—should be designed for longevity, strength, rigidity, and good looks (important for attracting more people to buy the product over time).
Lost-wax metal casting has also been effectively demonstrated with 3D-printed thermoplastic plastics but to me that seems like it might be a less environmentally friendly option (as compared to the above) despite possible reuse of the lost wax (the plastic). However, it might be cheaper and a more-viable option for such small manufacturing runs.
However, if the decision is made to go with plastic, and assuming a redesign is a possibility, one option would be to 3D-print the injection mould in metal (such as titanium) using a specialist 3D-printing service. The mould could then be used in a standard injection-mould machine.
With regard to the choice of material, I would suggest the following order of preference: 1) aluminium (recycled if possible), 2) titanium, 3) sustainably grown biological material, 4) plastic. Aluminium and titanium are highly recyclable (aluminium almost infinitely so http://recycling.world-aluminium.org/review/sustainability.html) while (non-biodegradable) recycled plastic almost always requires additional plastic feedstocks—resulting in perpetual growth of plastic waste.
It can be tricky getting truely environmentally friendly biological materials (such as bamboo) from non-western countries. The reason is that the demand for the materials often leads to deforestation of native forests in order to grow the bamboo, palm trees, etc. Sourcing materials (such as sustainably grown hemp, flax, or timber) from the few countries that have strong regulatory schemes would be ideal but typically comes with commensurately higher costs. Also, biological materials are not likely to be well suited to the material specifications needed for a laptop chassis. Note, too, that engineered products (like bamboo floorboards) often incorporate a large percentage of some pretty nasty glues.
My proposed ordered list above discounts the carbon-intensity of materials manufacturing, as well as the damage caused from the mining process, but working out such things is extremely complex and requires detailed audits of source material, material suppliers, and processing manufacturers. It also changes from country to country and from region to region within certain countries. For this project, I think it would be necessary to look at long-term material use and reuse. Aluminium, although requiring lots of (possibly dirty) energy to produce, is also an exceptional store of energy due to its capacity for perpetual recycling. It should also meet the fit, finish, and strength attributes required for the laptop housing.
Some possibly useful resources:
Professional 3D printing companies:
http://www.shapeways.com http://www.shapeways.com/ http://i.materialise.com http://i.materialise.com/
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/ https://www.sculpteo.com/en/
http://3dprinterhub.com/3d-printer-services/ http://3dprinterhub.com/3d-printer-services/ (Comparison service for Shapeways, imaterialise, and Sculpteo)
https://voodoomfg.com/ https://voodoomfg.com/ (Volume 3D-printing an option.)
http://www.shapeways.com/http://www.ponoko.com/3d-printing https://www.ponoko.com/3d-printing (Volume 3D-printing and laser cutting an option. Laser cutting and metal forming of aluminium (or Al alloy) sheet metal might allow for the rapid creation of cheap modular chassis components.
https://www.quora.com/Who-are-Shapeways-competitors https://www.quora.com/Who-are-Shapeways-competitors (A discussion of Shapeways and some of its competitors.)
Cheers,
Bluey
P.S. Without getting into the complicated world of finite element analysis and minimising points of high strain in the design, I would recommend well-rounded internal edges wherever possible if/when designing a chassis case. This will reduce high stress concentration in those areas. The sharper an edge or corner (e.g., on a rectangular hole) the higher the stress concentration in the material will be at that location.
On 28 Apr 2017, at 12:23 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Hrvoje Lasic lasich@gmail.com wrote:
this 3d printer looks ok, can you update on quality when available?
sure. i usually run these at 200mm/s which is a lot of fun - 4x what they're "rated" at.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Since there seems like a lot of options, I propose selecting from Bluey's list the 3D printer'er that has the least interest in patents. Ultimately, I think it would be most undesirable to really commission any company to do the printing, but should it be necessary the heaviest expectation we should have for them is not burdening society with their trolling of anyone who else wants to improve the quality of a thing.
I realize that poorly sourcing materials here and now, sets a bad precedent down the road, but the impact of a single run is not going to be that impactful and we can recover from that bad precedent by either putting heavier pressure on later or leaving it up to the individual for their own printing filament sources.
On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 8:07 AM, John Luke Gibson eaterjolly@gmail.com wrote:
Since there seems like a lot of options, I propose selecting from Bluey's list the 3D printer'er that has the least interest in patents. Ultimately, I think it would be most undesirable to really commission any company to do the printing, but should it be necessary the heaviest expectation we should have for them is not burdening society with their trolling of anyone who else wants to improve the quality of a thing.
agreed. everyone in the 3d printing community knows of makerrrbot's betrayal.
I realize that poorly sourcing materials here and now, sets a bad precedent down the road, but the impact of a single run is not going to be that impactful and we can recover from that bad precedent by either putting heavier pressure on later or leaving it up to the individual for their own printing filament sources.
it's in the update that's pending but the quality of most PLA is just absolutely dreadful. one easy test is to just leave the filament in the hot-end, with the spring-loaded hub pressurising it, for two weeks. if at any time the filament simply... falls off under pressure, it's sub-standard quality and should be *returned* for a refund.
the only filament that i've yet found which is of a consistent high quality is from faberdashery in the UK. i am however testing out something from the aliexpress company which they call "T-Pla", it's about the same cost as faberdashery.
but bottom line is: no absolutely not it cannot be just left to chance - the material *has* to be properly checked, whoever is chosen to do the 3D printing.
if if is sub-standard PLA the laptop will *literally* fall apart in people's hands, with the LCD crashing onto the table or, if someone is carrying it half the components will drop on the floor with the other half still in their hands.
also while it would be nice to use e.g. carbon fibre reinforced PLA that's not possible either, because the carbon fibre is highly abrasive and also blocks up small (0.4mm) nozzles. only 0.5mm and above is recommended but the design is *very* specifically targetted for 0.4mm (maybe below) nozzles.
l.
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Bluey bluey@smallfootprint.info wrote:
Hi All,
For what it’s worth, I’d like to thank all of you involved for taking on this important project.
thanks bluey.
I started subscribing to this list just a few days ago so please forgive me if specific design requirements/parameters have already been decided for the EOMA computer and my comments are not germane.
all appreciated. the only thing not "up for negotiation" is the EOMA68 standard revision 1.0, and any future revisions absolutely must be fully backwards-compatible. a surprise discussion a few months back brought up a couple of great ideas: if you want higher resolutions than 1366x768 the Housings *must* use line-buffer or frame-buffer "upscaling" display chips which can still accept 1366x768 (or below) and yet will perform the necessary hardware-level scaling to the Housing's output resolution (presumably but not necessarily fixed).
so there are some things that are definitely final.
I’m also not across which manufacturing skills, tools, and facilities are available within or to the group.
there's been a lot of expertise that has crossed this list over the past six years.
With the above said, the best option to my mind would be to 3D print and finish high-quality moulds (in titanium or steel) for use in stamping out aluminium case components from sheet metal.
the laptop's casework parts quite literally took eighteen months to develop, six months of which was in the PCBs which had to be also be developed and hand-populated during that time, to make absolutely sure that the PCBs and casework would actually fit together.
with only 150 pledges there's absolutely no way - at this immediate time - that any kind of redesign or additional effort beyond fulfilling those 150 pledges can be justified, especially given (as has been mentioned a few times) that the budget is already insufficient and a plan has been activated to bring in extra funds. stressing that plan by adding to it is not a good idea, *but*, if there are alternative workable ideas that come with resources attached i'd love to hear them.
I see modular design to be important primarily for the internal component selection and layout inside the laptop body rather than for the body itself, which—to my mind—should be designed for longevity, strength, rigidity, and good looks (important for attracting more people to buy the product over time).
i've looked at a number of designs of this type (pi-top being the most recent) - i posted about many of them during the campaign. i've done the best that i can, and kept the weight down to 1.1kg (for a 15.6in laptop that's incredibly good) which means that the usual kinds of structural stresses that require a metal chassis or special engineering analysis design tools have not been necessary. the prototype i have found that it can be lifted up with one hand at its corner and it *does not* bend out of shape, due to the light weight.
that, and insisting on using faberdashery's high quality PLA.
Lost-wax metal casting has also been effectively demonstrated with 3D-printed thermoplastic plastics but to me that seems like it might be a less environmentally friendly option (as compared to the above) despite possible reuse of the lost wax (the plastic). However, it might be cheaper and a more-viable option for such small manufacturing runs.
there's quite a bit of detail involved (0.8mm thickness in places) so i would be very very surprised if metal casting was successful.
However, if the decision is made to go with plastic, and assuming a redesign is a possibility, one option would be to 3D-print the injection mould in metal (such as titanium) using a specialist 3D-printing service. The mould could then be used in a standard injection-mould machine.
do you have any idea on how much that would cost? if i recall correctly the PLA parts weigh 200g in total, and there are 35 of them.
It can be tricky getting truely environmentally friendly biological materials (such as bamboo) from non-western countries.
yeah birchwood turns out to be the most common in europe: 1.5mm 3-ply which is perfect is very commonly used in making doll's houses.
My proposed ordered list above discounts the carbon-intensity of materials manufacturing, as well as the damage caused from the mining process, but working out such things is extremely complex and requires detailed audits of source material, material suppliers, and processing manufacturers. It also changes from country to country and from region to region within certain countries. For this project, I think it would be necessary to look at long-term material use and reuse. Aluminium, although requiring lots of (possibly dirty) energy to produce, is also an exceptional store of energy due to its capacity for perpetual recycling. It should also meet the fit, finish, and strength attributes required for the laptop housing.
surprisingly, faberdashery's PLA combined with the light-weight nature of the laptop does a really good job.
once through this first phase and this first 150 is out there, other options can be considered.
P.S. Without getting into the complicated world of finite element analysis and minimising points of high strain in the design, I would recommend well-rounded internal edges wherever possible if/when designing a chassis case. This will reduce high stress concentration in those areas. The sharper an edge or corner (e.g., on a rectangular hole) the higher the stress concentration in the material will be at that location.
yeah it's very common for the longer parts to pull off the printbed as the layers go up. one of the worst offenders is the base back (left/right) which is 160mm long, 11mm wide and *35* mm high. i had to add a lot of side-bolstering and also a wide brim to get it to stick, but someone with a much higher-quality 3D printer (all-aluminium, several thousands of dollars of time and materials) was able to get away with just one "pinning" square at the front and the back.
however i now have two pieces of printbite which i will be trying out soon, we will see how that goes.
but, essentially, unless someone is prepared to help tackle the casework (using libre software services, not e.g. github), due to the amount of time it took (18 months) i will go with what i have for this first revision.
thanks bluey.
l.
On April 27, 2017 9:23:40 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also scratch the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount on future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with access to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties as
I
have been starting getting into this for a rather short while now...
well, a 200x200 basic reprap will do the job, with a 0.4mm nozzle and a layer height of between 0.15 and 0.2mm is absolutely fine. it's not hugely difficult. i've just ordered this ($140!!) 3D printer from a taobao seller, it's arriving in a couple of days:
Here's a thought, if you're okay running a fleet of printers, what if we crowd funded a fleet of 3d printers, whereby people pay for printers, you do a bulk order of printers, use them to print the parts and then distribute the printers to backers. Sort of like a promotional thing, you can receive one of the printers that was used to make your laptop.
now, at $140 i am quite happy to get up to 10 of those (if the first one checks out fine) - it looks *really* sturdy: 20x20 aluminium box-section: my only concern about rigidity being that it uses L-brackets which go *into* the frame rather than triangle-corners which are bolted outside and lock the box-section absolutely solid. but, we'll see what happens.
also it looks like it has a clone of the E3Dv6 hot-end (which is really good), it has trapezoidal z-axis lead screws with proper brass nuts, borosilicate glass plate (to be confirmed).
the one thing i have told the guy (and he's happy to give a RMB 70 discount): i do NOT want the f*****-s***-for-brains RAMPS 1.4 controller. if you're familiar with 3D printing for f***'s sake STAY AWAY from ANYTHING that uses the brain-dead "Polulu" driver "modules". RAMPS, RUMBA, Lerdge, Megatronics - just don't f*****g well do it.
the reason is really really simple: those QFN ICs are designed SPECIFICALLY, as outlined CLEARLY IN THE DATASHEET, for the heat to be dissipated THROUGH THE PCB. there is a ceramic insulator on the TOP OF THE CHIP which ACTIVELY PREVENTS HEAT DISSIPATING THROUGH THE TOP. if you put a heat sink on top of the chip it does... nothing.
now, when the first reprap was created, in order to save time and development cost they bought some PROTOTYPING boards with the stepper drivers pre-mounted, which came with SPECIFIC instructions "under no circumstances use these in production".
so what happens?
well, they (a) burn out (b) overheat (c) stop working for a couple of seconds at a time in the middle of a print...
... you get the general idea.
so anyway i ordered a Melzi 2.0 from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Melzi-board/1757194_500507171.html
and it turns out that on the reprap wiki there's a mod to them which allows for the connection of a BT UART. it would have been handy if those pins had been brought out on a header but hey, what's wrong with a bit of soldering.
if you don't want to do soldering then you can just put the Melzi 2.0 into "auto-load" mode, drop a file in a FAT32 filesystem on a MicroSD card and power it up.
i like the Melzi 2. it's simple, relatively low-cost compared to some of the other options, no-nonsense and straightforward.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
Having just got into 3D printing myself I would suggest it is not yet a plug and play experience yet. Although the printer I got was very definitely a DIY project requiring assembly etc. the groups I am following also suggests to me that quality is very definitely an acquired skill that comes through experience. I had thought of volunteering my printers to complete the process for this project but I am not certain that my printing is up to the quality standards and as such I am not sure that I would want the stress of trying to turning out a product that I may not be experienced enough to do. I would think the only way to do a crowd source printing would require getting sample prints from each participant for evaluation. A process that would be quite time consuming I think. One mans' opinion.
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:16 AM Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
On April 27, 2017 9:23:40 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl@lkcl.net> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also scratch the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount on future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with access to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties as
I
have been starting getting into this for a rather short while now...
well, a 200x200 basic reprap will do the job, with a 0.4mm nozzle and a layer height of between 0.15 and 0.2mm is absolutely fine. it's not hugely difficult. i've just ordered this ($140!!) 3D printer from a taobao seller, it's arriving in a couple of days:
Here's a thought, if you're okay running a fleet of printers, what if we crowd funded a fleet of 3d printers, whereby people pay for printers, you do a bulk order of printers, use them to print the parts and then distribute the printers to backers. Sort of like a promotional thing, you can receive one of the printers that was used to make your laptop.
now, at $140 i am quite happy to get up to 10 of those (if the first one checks out fine) - it looks *really* sturdy: 20x20 aluminium box-section: my only concern about rigidity being that it uses L-brackets which go *into* the frame rather than triangle-corners which are bolted outside and lock the box-section absolutely solid. but, we'll see what happens.
also it looks like it has a clone of the E3Dv6 hot-end (which is really good), it has trapezoidal z-axis lead screws with proper brass nuts, borosilicate glass plate (to be confirmed).
the one thing i have told the guy (and he's happy to give a RMB 70 discount): i do NOT want the f*****-s***-for-brains RAMPS 1.4 controller. if you're familiar with 3D printing for f***'s sake STAY AWAY from ANYTHING that uses the brain-dead "Polulu" driver "modules". RAMPS, RUMBA, Lerdge, Megatronics - just don't f*****g well do it.
the reason is really really simple: those QFN ICs are designed SPECIFICALLY, as outlined CLEARLY IN THE DATASHEET, for the heat to be dissipated THROUGH THE PCB. there is a ceramic insulator on the TOP OF THE CHIP which ACTIVELY PREVENTS HEAT DISSIPATING THROUGH THE TOP. if you put a heat sink on top of the chip it does... nothing.
now, when the first reprap was created, in order to save time and development cost they bought some PROTOTYPING boards with the stepper drivers pre-mounted, which came with SPECIFIC instructions "under no circumstances use these in production".
so what happens?
well, they (a) burn out (b) overheat (c) stop working for a couple of seconds at a time in the middle of a print...
... you get the general idea.
so anyway i ordered a Melzi 2.0 from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Melzi-board/1757194_500507171.html
and it turns out that on the reprap wiki there's a mod to them which allows for the connection of a BT UART. it would have been handy if those pins had been brought out on a header but hey, what's wrong with a bit of soldering.
if you don't want to do soldering then you can just put the Melzi 2.0 into "auto-load" mode, drop a file in a FAT32 filesystem on a MicroSD card and power it up.
i like the Melzi 2. it's simple, relatively low-cost compared to some of the other options, no-nonsense and straightforward.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On April 27, 2017 11:36:30 AM EDT, Peter Carlson petercarlson79@gmail.com wrote:
Having just got into 3D printing myself I would suggest it is not yet a plug and play experience yet. Although the printer I got was very definitely a DIY project requiring assembly etc. the groups I am following also suggests to me that quality is very definitely an acquired skill that comes through experience. I had thought of volunteering my printers to complete the process for this project but I am not certain that my printing is up to the quality standards and as such I am not sure that I would want the stress of trying to turning out a product that I may not be experienced enough to do. I would think the only way to do a crowd source printing would require getting sample prints from each participant for evaluation.
This is why I was thinking of letting Luke do the printing and order of printers, just having the crowd put up funds for the purchase of printers, which the backers would receive the printer after the laptops have shipped.
A process that would be quite time consuming I think. One mans' opinion.
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:16 AM Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
On April 27, 2017 9:23:40 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton < lkcl@lkcl.net> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Christian Kellermann ckeen@pestilenz.org wrote:
As the current issue is time in producing them I would also
scratch
the printed parts order myself, maybe in exchange for a discount
on
future designs done by Luke and print them myself. People with
access
to a maker lab could consider doing the same...
I am not capable to promise good quality printing for 3rd parties
as
I
have been starting getting into this for a rather short while
now...
well, a 200x200 basic reprap will do the job, with a 0.4mm nozzle
and
a layer height of between 0.15 and 0.2mm is absolutely fine. it's
not
hugely difficult. i've just ordered this ($140!!) 3D printer from a taobao seller, it's arriving in a couple of days:
Here's a thought, if you're okay running a fleet of printers, what if
we
crowd funded a fleet of 3d printers, whereby people pay for printers,
you
do a bulk order of printers, use them to print the parts and then distribute the printers to backers. Sort of like a promotional
thing, you
can receive one of the printers that was used to make your laptop.
now, at $140 i am quite happy to get up to 10 of those (if the first one checks out fine) - it looks *really* sturdy: 20x20 aluminium box-section: my only concern about rigidity being that it uses L-brackets which go *into* the frame rather than triangle-corners which are bolted outside and lock the box-section absolutely solid. but, we'll see what happens.
also it looks like it has a clone of the E3Dv6 hot-end (which is really good), it has trapezoidal z-axis lead screws with proper
brass
nuts, borosilicate glass plate (to be confirmed).
the one thing i have told the guy (and he's happy to give a RMB 70 discount): i do NOT want the f*****-s***-for-brains RAMPS 1.4 controller. if you're familiar with 3D printing for f***'s sake
STAY
AWAY from ANYTHING that uses the brain-dead "Polulu" driver
"modules".
RAMPS, RUMBA, Lerdge, Megatronics - just don't f*****g well do it.
the reason is really really simple: those QFN ICs are designed SPECIFICALLY, as outlined CLEARLY IN THE DATASHEET, for the heat to
be
dissipated THROUGH THE PCB. there is a ceramic insulator on the TOP OF THE CHIP which ACTIVELY PREVENTS HEAT DISSIPATING THROUGH THE
TOP.
if you put a heat sink on top of the chip it does... nothing.
now, when the first reprap was created, in order to save time and development cost they bought some PROTOTYPING boards with the
stepper
drivers pre-mounted, which came with SPECIFIC instructions "under no circumstances use these in production".
so what happens?
well, they (a) burn out (b) overheat (c) stop working for a couple
of
seconds at a time in the middle of a print...
... you get the general idea.
so anyway i ordered a Melzi 2.0 from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/Melzi-board/1757194_500507171.html
and it turns out that on the reprap wiki there's a mod to them which allows for the connection of a BT UART. it would have been handy if those pins had been brought out on a header but hey, what's wrong
with
a bit of soldering.
if you don't want to do soldering then you can just put the Melzi
2.0
into "auto-load" mode, drop a file in a FAT32 filesystem on a
MicroSD
card and power it up.
i like the Melzi 2. it's simple, relatively low-cost compared to
some
of the other options, no-nonsense and straightforward.
l.
arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netbook@files.phcomp.co.uk
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On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
This is why I was thinking of letting Luke do the printing and order of printers, just having the crowd put up funds for the purchase of printers, which the backers would receive the printer after the laptops have shipped.
one concern is: my partner really doesn't want our apartment to be turned into a factory. also this is likely to take place during summer, which here in taiwan apparently hit FORTY FIVE (centigrade) last year. yes we have air conditioning units but all the same...
l.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net writes:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
This is why I was thinking of letting Luke do the printing and order of printers, just having the crowd put up funds for the purchase of printers, which the backers would receive the printer after the laptops have shipped.
one concern is: my partner really doesn't want our apartment to be turned into a factory. also this is likely to take place during summer, which here in taiwan apparently hit FORTY FIVE (centigrade) last year. yes we have air conditioning units but all the same...
Hmm, lots of conflicting requirements here :).
How many printers do you think you need operating to produce the parts in a reasonable time frame?
l.
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
one concern is: my partner really doesn't want our apartment to be turned into a factory. also this is likely to take place during summer, which here in taiwan apparently hit FORTY FIVE (centigrade) last year. yes we have air conditioning units but all the same...
Hmm, lots of conflicting requirements here :).
tell me about it....
How many printers do you think you need operating to produce the parts in a reasonable time frame?
10 of those $140 printers would bring it down to one month full-time 24x7 3D printing. so realistically, 10 would bring it down to about 3 months.
l.
Quick, give this man $1400
On 28 April 2017 07:04:40 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
one concern is: my partner really doesn't want our apartment to be turned into a factory. also this is likely to take place during summer, which here in taiwan apparently hit FORTY FIVE (centigrade) last year. yes we have air conditioning units but all the same...
Hmm, lots of conflicting requirements here :).
tell me about it....
How many printers do you think you need operating to produce the
parts
in a reasonable time frame?
10 of those $140 printers would bring it down to one month full-time 24x7 3D printing. so realistically, 10 would bring it down to about 3 months.
l.
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On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Allan Mwenda allanitomwesh@gmail.com wrote:
Quick, give this man $1400
:)
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Adam Van Ymeren adam@vany.ca wrote:
On April 27, 2017 6:50:39 AM EDT, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl@lkcl.net wrote:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
- i calculated that for the microdesktop i have an ENTIRE MONTH of
3d-printing to do, and a YEAR for the laptop. there's an update going out about this soon but basically i need help. ideas or actual practical help.
Are there companies that you could hire to do the bulk of the 3d printing?
there's a network-3D-printing company called mohou.com which i previously investigated.
Any idea what the quality and/or cost would be?
QTY 2000 of the microdesktop corner parts.
QTY 150 of each of the THIRTY FIVE laptop parts.
uploading QTY 1 of the microdesktop corner part is 10 RMB per part (so that would be 20,000 RMB or about $USD 3300). putting them in a batch of 60 and its 95 RMB per "part" (so that would be around $USD 500).
Is there any feasibility of producing the laptop parts via injection molding, but preserving the design in a way that end users could still print replacement parts? Seems like this would require a large redesign investment but could save time and money manufacturing.
it wouldn't be a large redesign (i hope) because as i am using a parametric design in python it *should* be possible to just write an alternative backend for pyopenscad that outputs STEP instead of SCAD-which-gets-turned-into-STL.
that's in theory. in practice i really really don't want to spend the time going down that route, even if there exists a STEP library (in python).
why STEP? because that's the standard that injection molding uses, because it's a geometric standard (not a triangles-and-faces standard like STL).
l.
El [DATE], "[NAME]" <[ADDRESS]> escribió:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
This?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD280J3703D.pdf
No CTP, only RTP?
...for the people still on Imperial units, rather than the SI/"metric" system -- 45 C is 113 F. ~36-37 C is body temperature (I've memorized 36 from my high school days, but Google says 37) which is pretty dang hot. At 113 F my skin would probably boil off... well, that's what it would feel like, anyhow!
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Miguel Ángel García gacuest@gmail.com wrote:
El [DATE], "[NAME]" <[ADDRESS]> escribió:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
This?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD280J3703D.pdf
No CTP, only RTP?
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On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 12:11:11PM -0400, Christopher Havel wrote:
...for the people still on Imperial units, rather than the SI/"metric" system -- 45 C is 113 F. ~36-37 C is body temperature (I've memorized 36 from my high school days, but Google says 37) which is pretty dang hot. At 113 F my skin would probably boil off... well, that's what it would feel like, anyhow!
I asked my wife, a retired doctor.
37 is generally considered to be body temperature. But people vary. My wife says her basal body temperature is 36.4.
38.5 and above is considered to be a fever.
-- hendrik
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Miguel Ángel García gacuest@gmail.com wrote:
El [DATE], "[NAME]" <[ADDRESS]> escribió:
ok so a quick status update:
- Frida, in Shenzhen, have a customer currently ordering their 2.8in
FRD280J3703D SPI-based LCD. this means it's possible to place an order for less than the normal MOQ of 1,000 so we go with that one for the 15in laptop.
This?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD280J3703D.pdf
No CTP, only RTP?
sorry wrong one - P/N FRD280QV10-CT
arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
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Allan Mwenda -
Bluey -
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Hendrik Boom -
Hrvoje Lasic -
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Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Miguel Ángel García -
Peter Carlson